Help me make my 35 Rem shoot

[sfauble]

I recently purchased a 1979 Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. After getting some brass from Grumpa and ordering a mold from Accurate Molds I proceeded to start loading for this rifle. The mold I got is 4 cavity, 2 cavities drop the RCBS clone of 200-fn that drop at 212 and the other 2 are a clone of the Ranchdog that drop at 197. Both drop at .360 . I powder coat all my bullets for all my rifles and attach Hornady gas checks.

I have only been able to get one load to be accurate enough to please me. With the Grumpa brass made from LC 308 brass I had to come up with my own loads. My best and only accurate load so far is the 200-fn powder coated, gas check and water quenched from the toaster oven. I have these sized at .358 and also .360 with a push through sizer from lee. All dressed up they weigh 218 gr. 39 gr LVR powder seated right at the lands running 2175 fps. The accuracy is the same either size at right at 2" at 100 yds. Now I am happy with this load and can use it. This is a repeatable 5 shot group.

Here is my problem. This is the only load that is accurate. After playing around with both bullets and LVR and H4895 powders, speeds from 1800 fps to 2300 fps the above load is the only load that is acceptable. All other loads with either bullet average 3''-6" at 100 yds. So while trying to figure this out I have found some issues. Below are some pictures.

Every load is stripping lead when fired. I have never seen this. Also almost all bullets of either cast seem to be entering the rifling crooked. I seat both bullets so they just touch the rifling. The gas check is already below the neck of the case and I don't really like that. What could be causing the bullet to enter crooked as it is. I am pretty new to casting and shooting lead but I am confident these are causing me to lose accuracy even though my above accurate load also enters crooked and strips lead. Please take a look at the pics and send some ideas my way. The last three pictures are my dummy rounds to set seating depth. These are actually straight but I put them in there to show where the rifling is in relation to seating depth and no throat.

[jcren]

Semi blind guess, but I have a 45acp that does the same thing with .453 tc style bullets due to a "square" lead. I can size then smaller or shoot a different style bullet with no problems. Suggest a slug and pound cast to get a better idea of the interna dimensions you are working with.

[scottfire1957]

Is one good load not enough?

[altheating]

Have you tried jacketed bullets in that rifle to see if it will shoot them accurately? I wouldn't expect it to shoot cast any better than it will shoot jacketed. Try slowing them down a bit. My 35 rem shoots best at about 1700 fps with the RCBS 200. You can shoot it all day with no leading. Try lubing a few by hand with some quality lube and size them and shoot. See if the beeswax based lube works better than the PC.

[Yodogsandman]

Are the lead rings shaved when seating the boolits or when entering the chamber?

Assuming seating, are you belling the mouth of the case enough to prevent shaving?

Is the 35 Rem brass made from military LC 308 brass thicker in the neck than commercial 35 Rem brass?

Are you trimming the case length to enable you to crimp in the crimp groove?

Are you chamfering the case mouth?

It's not unusual for one boolit design to shoot better than another.

PC thickness cannot be applied consistently and using lube will be more accurate. PC is increasing the size of your noses. Your dummy rounds show the lead noses are entering straight. Are the crooked ones just the PC'd ones? You could try not PC'ing the noses by covering them some how during ESPC application.

[dead dog]

Do you use a m die before seating? It helped a lot with my 32 .

[BK7saum]

2nd on m die or other type of expander. The expander ball in a full length die is not cast boolit friendly.

[sfauble]

The lead rings are happening when shooting. You can chamber them and eject them with no ring. The rings are there when ejecting the fired case. I use a lee expander die for belling the case mouth. The cases are probably thicker since I do have to reduce the charges around 5 gr. I did not trim the cases to crimp in groove. I use a light crimp on the forward band of the rcbs and just forward on the ranchdog. I use a lee factory crimp die.

I had to pull 15 rounds after the first range trip since I didn't know what charges to use. I didn't reduce enough and had some pretty hot loads. The pulled bullets looked good with no shaving of the coating. They were also very hard to chamber so I seated them a little deeper and now the gas check is just below the neck. Originally they were just in the base of the neck. They chamber with just a little resistance of the lever.

I may have to try some regular lube and see if it makes a difference. I use the powder coating because it does not smoke. I don't really care for the smoke.

I did shoot a box of leverevolution that came with it when I got it. They would shoot about 3.5" at 100. These where my first shots with this gun. The gun looks almost brand new and I don't know if it has been shot much more than that.

The rings are making me more curious than anything. I had to put some time into making some accurate loads for my savage 308 and my old savage 340 30-30. They responded more clearly to changes. This 35 just seems more erratic in behavior to changes.

[35remington]

Have you the ability to measure runout to see if this is a possible verification of your claim of crookedness? Marlin chambers can be generous and mine will accept a bullet of up to .362."

The lead shaving also can be a possible consequence of using the factory crimp die. Being a ring crimp, it does not open up while the bullet is moving. Try no crimp and single load or a roll crimp instead to isolate causes.

[Yodogsandman]

Try no crimp at all and single load, just to see if it's the crimp that causes the rings. If it is, trim the cases to the crimp groove and lightly crimp there. Be sure the case length isn't too long and you chamfer the mouths.

Consider getting a NOE expander plug for your Lee Universal Expander.

Don't worry too much about where your GC is in the case. I would seat so there was no resistance on the lever at all. You might be able to make your nose smaller, allowing you to seat out further by adjusting your alloy. Using less antimony will reduce the size, just slightly.

For an easy to use lube, try Ben's Liquid Lube (BLL). Last week I shot it in my 7.62x51 to about 2500 FPS (est) with very little smoke. With barely any breeze, I only noticed just a wisp of smoke.

[sfauble]

Too much info to put into original post so ill answer as they come up. I don't have a way of checking run out so I haven't other than roll on the table. I also made up 5 of each bullet with no crimp, just removing the bell. I got the same shaving when shot. All have been shot single. I did check to make sure they would cycle and they do with no issue.

I don't have a bore scope so I can't see the chamber well, but from what I can see it looks like it's square where the rifling starts. I will trim the brass on the next batch to the crimp groove to see if it helps.

[44man]

Check fired brass to see if there is any crimp left. It looks like boolits are too soft and the crimp is peeling a ring off. Boolits might be slumping.

[altheating]

Yup, I would try crimping in the crimp groove, not on the driving band. Trim the brass to allow crimping in the band.

[Yodogsandman]

Where do you find the rings?

Any shaving that's inside the case would be blown out when fired.

[bhn22]

I kind of suspect that the rifle could use a slight throating job. I'm wondering if there is a sharp edge at the origin of the throat cut that is rather uniformly shearing off the rings you're seeing. It's certainly cutting neat, really consistent rings with each firing.

[sfauble]

The rings are coming out with the case after firing. Some fall off but I raise the rifle and eject towards the shooting bench and they come out with the case. I tried ejecting slowly to see if they are on the end of the case but if I do they fall off in the chamber, so not completely sure. I will lube some this week and try lube next weekend but I'm sure they will still cut a ring.

Just a thought on the accuracy. My savage 308 bought new a few months ago shot lead for poo when new. Even jacketed was mediocre at first. I want to be able to shoot both from that rifle. So after frustration with lead I started working on jacketed loads. After developing some 165 and 150 gr loads, approx 200 total rounds I went back to lead. It was like night and day difference. I have a 180 gr load that will now shoot 10 shot groups of 3" at 200 yds. Is it possible this rifle needs the same treatment? I kinda hope not. I had no plans for jacketed from this rifle.

[Litl Red 3991]

Just a guess but could the alloy be too soft. When fired, they slump and fill in the leade ahead of the case mouth. That gets stripped when fired, but doesn't happen when the cartridges are just cycled.

The most recent Lee loading manual has a writeup about accuracy being a function of pressure versus hardness. Think it's online too.

[Litl Red 3991]

The rings are coming out with the case after firing. Some fall off but I raise the rifle and eject towards the shooting bench and they come out with the case. I tried ejecting slowly to see if they are on the end of the case but if I do they fall off in the chamber, so not completely sure. I will lube some this week and try lube next weekend but I'm sure they will still cut a ring.

Just a thought on the accuracy. My savage 308 bought new a few months ago shot lead for poo when new. Even jacketed was mediocre at first. I want to be able to shoot both from that rifle. So after frustration with lead I started working on jacketed loads. After developing some 165 and 150 gr loads, approx 200 total rounds I went back to lead. It was like night and day difference. I have a 180 gr load that will now shoot 10 shot groups of 3" at 200 yds. Is it possible this rifle needs the same treatment? I kinda hope not. I had no plans for jacketed from this rifle.

More than one new rifle has shot lead better after a short time shooting jacketed. In fact, more than one has shot lead better after shooting lead for awhile. So that could be one reason.

The other reason might be the first lead loads were a different velocity/pressure than the later ones that shot better. Or the alloy was different from one batch to the other.

The reason Lee was mentioned is because I've been using their pressure:hardness chart since finding it and it appears to be working as far as I've tested it.

[35remington]

I find shooting jacketed first often eases the abrupt transition angles in the throat and the start of the rifling, enabling, I presume, the ability to shoot lead more accurately.

Heck, shooting jacketed first isn't so bad....save for the cost.

When running down causes, but sure to try one improvement at a time or you'll never know which improvement made the difference.

[sfauble]

I wouldn't think it's too soft. It's the same alloy I use for my .30 calls. Same treatment. Cast, size with gas check, shake and bake pc, bake and drop into ice water from oven. I have run these at 2550 fps from .308 with no issues, just the accuracy has fallen off. I know the bullets are different but I get good accuracy and no leading with this alloy prepped this way from 1200 fps - 2300 fps in both 308 and 30-30.