You just got to love Idaho and it's attitude toward gun ownership. If you have a CCP you walk into the shop, pick out the gun you like and fill out the purchase paper work and the gun is yours when paid for. Your carry permit is your background check. For face to face private sales even easier. I've bought and sold guns at yard sales. We have a lot less gun crime here than the restricted states, look how well the laws work in NY. Philly and Chicago. GP
When I read your post, I see that for Finns, freedom is being free from fear or something else. Americans see freedom as not "free from" but "free to". Free to live one's life according to the dictates of one's conscious and not how the government thinks it should be done. In this regard government itself, no matter how benovelent, is an oppressive force. The people that came here found the old world, it's society, it's economic system and point of view to restrictive. They came here to get away from an oppressive, repressive and restrictive government and society. In short they came here to be free from.Originally Posted by Ola
I do not fear our government, I distrust our government. It is made up of humans every ready to diminish our freedom for it's own purposes.
we see thing differently not because we live in different worlds, but because we are different people, at least when it comes to understanding what freedom is and experienced. I don't think Euro types understand this. Freedom as we understand it is a "new world" concept and not an "old world" concept. That is why our ancestors got the hell out of there in the first place. They found the old world to oppressive, repressive and restrictive.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 07-01-2015 at 10:56 PM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Yeah, CA seems pretty bad. But still not as bad as NY. I will never live in either state.
Our politicians at the federal level routinely, with knowledge beforehand, violate the constitution. Where did all of the "presidential" authority come from (Presidential orders, etc.)? For sure it did not come from the constitution. In fact the constitution was specifically written to prevent such atrocities. Congress (both houses) have abdicated their authority to act. You seen or heard of a budget for the last X years? There hasn't been one. That is one of the primary reasons for the House of Representatives. Where is the President and all the rest of them getting the money they're spending without an approved budget? Based upon the latest Supreme Court decisions, it's pretty obvious the Justices have gone political and are not following the Constitution, at least the way it is written and was intended to be applied. I fear my government. I expect a serious shooting situation to erupt at just about any time. The "blacks" are in the process of declaring war on the "whites" and have clearly declared war on the police of any color in Baltimore, Chicago, and Louisiana, and probably in many other locals. A white cop shoots a black and the media and our federal govt. are on his/her case instantly. It makes little or no sense what the facts are. Inevitably, the facts ultimately give the cops a clear conscience. Blacks can kill pretty much at will and the media and federal govt. doesn't seem to give a damn how many are killed, black or white. The backlash cannot be long in coming. Am I a white supremacist? Hell no. I believe every man or woman has the opportunity to make their life what they will. Leave me and mine alone and I will reciprocate. Do I want this war? Again, hell no, but I'm not smart enough to figure our way out of this mess without a complete turnover of all politicians at the federal level. After that the politicians need to clean house in the regulatory agencies. Will this happen? Not a chance in hell because those on the dole outnumber the rest of us and they want the gravy train to continue. Ah nuts.....
I feel sorry for the Finlander, most of Europe is like that, very restrictive, except for airguns, where one can buy any airgun without a permit, you don't have to be a resident even. Of course now they are building bigger and more powerful airguns every day, wonder how that will end up?
Yes it is very restrictive here. But not too restrictive: we can still buy semiauto pistols, rifles and shotguns and as many silencers we like. And a collector may buy also modern machine guns. No caliber limitations as long as the caliber fits the purpose and so on.
Air guns: in the future air guns over 6,35 mm (bigger than .25) will have a "restriction": firearm permit holders can buy them like they used to but other must apply for "air rifle license". (the purpose of the legistlation is to prevent maniacs and criminals buying high powered air guns LECALLY.)
Is it? There are hard statistics on America not being more law-abiding than other countries, at least as far as deadly violence is concerned, and as to politeness, try looking at the different nations' internet. Most especially if you look at "The Pit" (where this sensibly conceived information thread is not situated.) There is a far greater level of hatred and abuse of public figures, other races and those who think differently, than you would find elsewhere, and a far greater desire to inflict penalties on people who resemble criminals and terrorists. Values such as freedom of religion come under constant attack, and frequently we can see the claim, just like in the Soviet Union, that the will of the majority should be overruled by the values of right-thinking people.
These attitudes extend further up the social ladder than elsewhere, even to people who have probably been successful in other areas of life. There are also many who shift from a reasonable concern for self-defense to building their drab lives around the possibility that they will someday draw a burglar tag.
It isn't possible to ignore the resemblance. American criminals have less respect for human life because American non-criminals have less respect for human life. There are more people than yourself who would kill for your lawnmower, because you create them. Political assassination remains a lively possibility, when it has virtually vanished from western Europe within living memory. American criminals probably kill more people every two months than terrorists since 1776. What is more, I believe I detect a good many people who, if given a magic wand and the opportunity to bring both phenomena peacefully to an end in a moment, would not do it.
The argument of capital punishment has been brought up. Personally I don't believe there is a different deterrent value to the criminal mind, between a 0% chance of execution, and a 2.5% chance of a death sentence, and a 22% chance of execution after an average period of 15 years. Purely from the point of view of mortality, that makes murder safer than smoking. What does affect the chances of a criminal eliminating witnesses or arresting officers is a wide difference in sentences, chance of parole etc. laid down for those types of murder, the use of firearms or poison, etc. Execute all murderers, and the only kind of execution is the fatal kind.
Bit more in depth info for longarms in my state in Australia (NSW) some states are slightly more relaxed some slightly more strict.
You must be licenced to own, use or even handle a firearm.
To apply for a licence you must complete a safe handling course that includes a written and practical exam, there is no shooting standard, the emphasis is on safety.
You need to have a genuine reason for a licence to be issued, hunting, target shooting, work etc are all acceptable reasons. Self defense is not, genuine reasons need to be substantiated, a letter from a land owner allowing access to their land is acceptable proof, as is a hunt club or target club membership.
Minimum time for a licence to be issued after an application is one month.
Unless you are a land owner or professional shooter then Category A&B are all that is applicable
Cat A is all air rifles, all rimfire rifles other than self loading and all shotguns other than pump or self loading
Cat B is all centrefire rifles other than self loading and all muzzle loading longarms.
Firearms must be stored securely, a rifle safe is the usually standard although a hardwood locker does meet the requirements for Cat A
Once you have a licence you can apply for a permit to acquire (PTA) Turn around time on a PTA in my state can run from 1 week to 3 or 4.
Some states have introduced electronic applications that can be 1 day turn around. If it is your 1st purchase in a category then a 28 day cooling off period is added to the turn around times on PTAs.
Once you have a PTA you can go shopping, PTAs are valid for 3 months and issued for a category, for example you could walk into a gun shop with a Cat B PTA and the intent to buy a single shot 22 hornet but walk out with a 10shot bolt action 50BMG or any other pump, bolt, lever, straight pull or single shot provided it is a centre fire rifle.
Some shooters keep applying for PTAs so they always have a current one on hand if the find something they must have on sight. Nothing to stop this practice other than the $30 application fee for a PTA.
All sales must be through a firearms dealer who forwards the relevant section of the PTA to the firearms registry. This doesn't prevent private sales but all private sales must be through a dealer.
Dealers obviously charge to do a transfer between a private seller and buyer, anything from a token few dollars for a simple transfer in store that only really requires witnessing on their part to $100 or more for those that might involve sending or receiving a firearm interstate. Firearms can only be shipped between dealers.
The little rural town I live in is around 1000 people about 300 firearms licences, get into the inner suburbs of the major cities and it might drop to as low as 1 in 1000 or fewer. Keep in mind this is for licenced firearms owners, like everywhere else in the world our criminals don't abide by the local laws. There is a thriving black market for illegal guns, border protection has no idea of how many get through but when they catch as many as 150 glocks in one go then we aren't talking about a handful.
On top of this there are all the grey guns that were imported legally prior to registration but weren't surrendered in the buyback or registered. This could be in the millions but no one has any idea of the true numbers.
I'm a Brit and I do disagree. Assessing a clear-cut case of imminent physical danger is not easy. If you find a man in your home, how do you know he was not there to rape? Why give him the benefit of the doubt? Home invasions to rape are surprisingly common. A huge number of Burglars carry knives, and will use them. I am a retired Constable, and we frequently were issued pamphlets about who had escaped from jail, or were otherwise Wanted. A very common 'M.O.' under many of the faces of the Wanted was 'Enter private dwelling and rape'. I think the majority of people in the UK feel home invaders, would-be rapists, Burglars, should lose any right to live. Entering another's home is a line that should never be crossed. It devastates many people for the rest of their life. I think it's barbarous to tolerate this.
The world is changing very fast. We may, see ordinary people routinely attacked in the more rural areas by certain extremists who seem to be spreading like an insane super-virus. Then the issue of self-defence of the individual may become more discussed in the Press again. Indeed, InterPol have suggesting general arming of populations is the only way this is going to be stopped. Heavy words. A search for 'Interpol Armed Citizenry' is worth reading.
When I was sixteen years old, I belonged to the Explorer Scouts in my home town in Southern California (tip of the hat to Lord Baden Powell, a famous Englishman). We had an amateur radio specialty, and had gone on Field Day, an annual event to practice emergency communications while mobile. About the time we were going to pack up and go home, a deranged rancher, who had just gotten out of the hospital, came and accosted us at gunpoint. His wife had driven him there, and stood by while he waved his revolver at us and spouted crazy statements about throwing us off "his" land ( it actually belonged to the Boy Scout council). During his tirade, he accidentally shot his wife in the leg. At that point he allowed one of our leaders to drive them to the hospital. The rest of us beat it out of there. The rancher was arrested but never prosecuted.
It is easy to imagine that one is safe at all times, but situations such as this can come up unexpectedly, and it was only happenstance that a greater tragedy did not occur. It still makes me shaky to think about it.
Wayne
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger - or else it gives you a bad rash.
Venison is free-range, organic, non-GMO and gluten-free
Wayne: That's a fine example of the main problem we (law abiding sport shooters, hunters, collectors etc..) here have to deal with. How to keep the firearms only in the RIGHT hands?
Let me explain:
Some years ago after 2 school shootings it seemed that we have lost. Both shooters used legally owned .22LR pistol (at that point it was common to get .22LR as a first pistol permit. It was very easy to get). Both nutcases applied and got a license to buy a "less dangerous" .22.. That was bad. For some time it looked like we are going to get a total ban on semiauto pistols and all kind of ridiculous restrictions. Luckily most of those ideas were abandoned after the emotions cooled. We still have the "sanity test" but there are strong rumours it also is going away in the future. The test is not effective enough compared to the cost. Tens of thousands of law abiding people taking time of from work to go to test that have zero effect.. Luckily someone in the GOV can still make the 1+1=2.
At this moment the "firearms instructor" systems seems to do what it was designed to do. They are "on the field" checking out the people who want to buy handguns. It is quite weird system actually: they are basically doing the job that should belong to the police. Because if the instructor gives you the certificate, you can be sure to get the permit from the police. On the other hand, the 1-2 years period of mandatory shooting practice should be quite effective to reveal people that are crazy or otherwise unsuitable to own guns..
Actually, this is the reason we tolerate all these restrictions in Europe. If legally owned guns are NOT used in violence, they are not considered to be a threat by the general population -> no total bans of firearms.
In USA it is a right to own guns, here it is a privilege to own guns.
220, here in Sth Oz a PTA is only valid for 28 days and must have on it the serial number of the firearm being purchased i.e. you decide what you want to buy and then submit the PTA! Current waiting time is about four weeks (our Firearms Branch have a very antiquated system requiring manual handling of all paperwork).
Our Draconian controls came about because of a massacre at Pt. Arthur. Our Prime Minister of the day (John Howard) had already stated that he hated guns, so this was a golden opportunity to force his ideas about guns onto the country as a whole. I thinks it's safe to say that no firearm owners/shooters had any idea of the implications of what he was doing.
The antis like to say that because of the stringent controls there have been no more massacres since, but various studies and analysis of figures since then have demonstrated that there is little validity to that argument. New Zealand, for instance, has far less stringent controls and hasn't had any massacres either in that time frame. But, of course, the antis conveniently ignore any such data (as we all know).
Many of the sections of our National Firearms Agreement (little Johnny Howard's pride and joy) are illogical, to say the least, but since when has that bothered politicians?
I live in Illinois and I will be the first to admit that the USA can be a violent place.
I live in a rural area. The police are anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour away in response time. If I cannot protect my family, the police certainly can't do it. All they will accomplish is to investigate the crime. I have had property stolen several times so I know the bad guys are out there.
While I have never been robbed at gunpoint or beaten, I have prevented both from occurring by being prepared. In two different instances I was able to stop an attempted robbery/beating by simply showing the people involved that I was armed.
I will gladly give up my handguns and semi-auto long guns on the day you can prove to me that I no longer need to worry about defending myself and my family from those who would attack me.
Somehow, I don't believe that will ever happen.
There are always people who are willing to take what you have by force. There always have been and there always will be.
That is exactly the situation in which both court decisions and government statements have made it clear that the householder is allowed a wide margin of error in shooting someone who might be harmless.
No, a huge number of burglars do not carry knives, because they know how the penalities escalate dramatically if they do. An interesting quirk of law is that in Scotland killing by a third party to save a woman from rape - imminent rather than hypothetical - is considered a valid defense, but in England it isn't. Perhaps you are expected to disturb his concentration, which I imagine you often could. I expect this is another one where considerable margin for error would be accepted. But it is the way you allowed yourself to be legislated for.
I'd hesitate to believe police opinion on most issues, and notably on those which suggest a need for increased police powers. Of course armed home invasions and rape-murders do occur in the UK. But I never yet visited a police station and saw more than one or two nationwide wanted posters on the wall. I still think your chances are greater with your personal cardiac defribulator.
Whether we realize it or not, much of this turns on American individualism vs. Euro collectivism. The talk tends to center around firearms laws as expressions of freedom. In American the emphasis is more on liberty than it is on freedom. Liberty is an individual thing. Liberty is to be set free from restrictions. Euro types with their emphasis on the collective society see freedom quite different, feeling they don't have the need to be liberated from the government. However when the Nazis rolled over much of Europe, then liberty became a much more important concern.
Much is said about more violence in America vis-a-vi Europe. It is true that America has more violence, but that is a consequence of being a society based on individual liberty. When you have people truly free, some will choose to abuse that freedom in an anti-social way.
Much of the violence is a cost that comes from our liberty. Take as a whole, that is a cost we are willing to pay. That is why we carry guns. When discussing our "right" in American, one of my Professors in Law School said at the end of a lecture; "The only rights we really have are the ones we carry on our hip". This meant that rights are just words unless they can be enforced. The last recourse to enforce our rights, is indeed what is on our hips. We cannot depend on the government to give us our rights, or enforce our rights, because it can't be trusted to do so, or so we think.
America is indeed a gun culture with some parts more so than others. But having the "right" to keep and bear arms are essential to liberty as we understand that term. Liberty, is the keystone and hallmark of what it means to be an American. This is not a part of Euro thinking. When Euros think of firearms ownership solely in terms of personal protection and the need for it, they utterly fail to understand the American character.
Bottom line is any conversation about various firearms laws around the world have little value apart from the society that writes those laws. These laws do not occur in a cultural vacuum, but in the context of who people are, how they see themselves and others, and what they consider the purpose and place of government.
Even in America, the cultures are different. Rural Americans tend to be closer to the original individual American values and culture. People in urban areas tend to be more collective and Euro in their approach to life. Firearms laws will reflect this difference even within the US.
Do not think that I am anti-Euro or anything like that. I just feel that comparisons between Euro and American laws should reflect the very different cultural presumptions between the two. Euros have the right, think anyway they wish, arms themselves, or not, for any purpose they wish and govern themselves anyway they wish. It is no business of mind. I do not see Americans in any way superior to Euros, but we are very different critters, a fact that often is overlook on threads like this.
I am a live and let live, think and let think kind of guy. However, I do get irritated when a Euro type feels free to criticize American from across an ocean because of his own cultural collective presumptions, without any true understanding of America or Americans. This is ethnocentric arrogance.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 07-02-2015 at 10:45 AM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Long ago I could buy a revolver in the mail. Sent money order for a Ruger BH .44 mag out of state and I was 18 at the time. I got the gun in the mail. Same for all the S&W 29's I bought. I bought my first .357 revolver when I was 16.
Back then there were no shootings at schools or churches. We would take guns to school so we could hunt after.
Now it is the race thing and Democrats that give those that will not work free stuff. We never feared black people back then. We played together and went to school together.
The more given to them, the more they wanted. Steal to get more free. Soon they were in gangs on the streets. Fear to walk came in. Governments start the troubles.
Give them free housing and soon the whole neighborhood is a trash pile. They do not have basic human respect for themselves. Fix a sink or toilet, paint the house and keep the yard clean. Are you nuts, Gov should do it. Then drugs and millions to be made quick.
Then laws were passed to limit guns but it only affects the law abiding so crime goes up. Store workers are at the mercy of a robber entering. Protect yourself and all others in the store and you will lose your job. Maybe go to jail. Cops shoot creeps and are raked over the coals. Now they refuse to uphold the law because the left will ruin them.
Now there is a discussion about the cop that shot the escaped murderer in the back was legal. If the creep was black, the cop would be in big trouble.
Notice the rise in crime when cops are not upheld by those they depend on. If I was a cop I would not go near a black if he was smashing the store. Cops were told to stand down as stores were trashed and burned. WHY? Top brass is black.
After the mess in Japan with the earthquake, not one single person did wrong. Look at what happened here after the hurricane.
Many overseas were good people and in England cops carried no guns. They were respected. But that is gone now. Now they are Swat teams. They let the Muslims in and face terror like never before. Obumbler says to give them jobs. What can they do? Have sex with goats! Grow drugs!
We need to bring back the Knights Templar.
Religion has done the most damage on earth and has killed more then anything else.
We are within city limits BUT response time (assuming the 911 operator don't screw up) for police would be at least 15 to 20 minutes. No one but me will be responsible for my wife and my safety or the protection of our possessions. No one has a right to take what is mine! If you try, you do so at your peril . If you try to break into my house you may get a shouted warning (depending on how far in you are), but believe me when the eco dies you had better be running the other way or----
Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6!
R.D.M.
You need to take Philly out of that comparison. Pennsylvania is a very free state. Our firearm laws are more lax than a state like Texas. Just using it as an example. Philly has had some odd laws w/in the limits but preemption has been done away w/. It will be in court for a little bit but it's gone. For a law abiding citizen you pass a NICS check, fill out the 4473 and walk out w/ the firearm. Concealed carry permits are shall issue and in most counties you walk out w/ it in hand after the paperwork and photo. No fingerprints or training requirements. Open carry legal everywhere. Only hiccup is Philly where you need a concealed carry permit to open carry. But like I said, preemption is going away. If you can't tell I hate when PA is lumped in w/ the rest of the north east. We have our issues but firearm laws aren't part of it, as of right now.
But you aren't. The western European nations have seen communist disappear from the political scene, and doctrinaire socialism not far behind, without criminalizing it, witch-hunts, dismissals from employment, pressure from the media or from neighbours... and Americans are far more vulnerable than us to pressure from the neighbours.
The British political system seems to work quite well with alternating doses of left and right wing views balancing one another up. All successful economies are mixed ones, and the people who complain most vociferously about a national health service or unemployment relief which they may never need, are often the ones who most vociferously demand a national war service which other people may never need. Communists and doctrinaire socialists have given us good service, and I believe we still have one or two of each fossilized in the House of Lords, with every imaginable honour except power. I don't want to be either, but in the UK I feel much safer from people coming after me for whatever the next fantasy will be.
I've spent much of my life living and working among American, by birth or by naturalization, who much resented being taxed by the United States government even though they had been overseas and taken no part in the US economy or governmental services for many years. There are people alive today who could have been stripped of American nationality for voting in other countries where they still had dual nationality. It is all very much like being owned, in ways quite impossible for the British.
Not many people nowadays remember that the American Frederick Russell Burnham, Lord Baden-Powell's mentor in fieldcraft, was just as important in the origins of the Boy Scout movement. I have a signed copy of Burnham's book, which is a fascinating read, but there is an interesting omission. He received the Distinguished Service Order for his work as chief of scouts to Lord Roberts in the Boer War, but he was obliged to decline the Victoria Cross, which had long since been awarded to all sorts of odd nationalities, because if he had accepted, he would have lost his American nationality. There isn't much "free to" in that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freder...econd_Boer_War
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