Filtering dirty brass wash water

[W.R.Buchanan]

I see what you are trying to accomplish however if you were to water plants on your property with once used water I see no appreciable amount of pollution here.

Exactly how much water per day are we talking about? 100 gallons, 200 gallons? More? Less? I could dump that much water on my lawns and not even saturate them fully. IN fact my sprinkler system sues more water than that every time it runs.

Let the dirt filter the bad stuff out.

If you dump it on a lawn, and it kills the lawn then maybe you have a problem,,,

Otherwise recycle by using the water for irrigation. You could disperse the water thru perforated pipes like used in a Septic System. That way the water would be distributed over a large area. In fact a dedicated septic system might be in order if your volume is big enough.

Another way would be to centrifuge the water. This will remove all particulates quickly and much better than any filtration system.

There are plenty of De Laval Centrifuges on the used machinery market. They remove any particle that has any mass whatsoever. They are usually used for recycling motor oil.

You're in Texas and I know there is no shortage of water there right now. In fact I just heard on the new a few minutes ago( 11:30 AM PDT, 6/15/2015) you were about to get another round of Flash Flooding.

Randy

[mold maker]

If this is a commercial venture, It might be to your advantage to have a sample tested for release in non potable water. Knowing exactly what the baddies are will tell you how to meet standards. States have a way of strangling small businesses with red tape after huge investments have already been made.
What us town folks can just pour down the drain, could be cause for a huge fine, and clean up elsewhere. Our output is diluted by a huge factor just because of the size of the system.
The OP is trying to be responsible, and is dealing with unknowns, on his home property.
My personal experience involves reclaiming silver from a nitrate system, and was more geared toward recovery of precious metal, than treating the output. In our case the dilution involved in the flocked and salt treated process, was sufficient to meet city codes. In order to avoid future penalties we paid to have the treated water hauled away by a disposal co. They got paid to pump it into a truck, that later legally dumped it into a huge municipal sewer system. Problem solved
Come to find out, the city water had contents that weren't legal in sewer, but were OK for water supply. Go figure.

[sdcitizen]

I work in industrial wastewater treatment. We remove all sorts of toxic things from water, including metals. Bangerjim was on the right track for what you might have in your water. The contaminants to worry about in the wastewater are likely lead and zinc. The carbon residue will actually be a help to you. A bio filter is merely a home for bacteria that use contaminants as a food source. They use carbon to convert ionic metals to an inert state. The bacteria that do this need a water pH of 6.5-8.5, and no oxygen in the water with a temperature above 65 F. After that all it takes is sufficient contact time and a little extra bio-available carbon to do the job. Carbon can be anything from glucose and sucrose, to alcohols or hydrocarbon fuels. In the testing that we have done, the contact time is on the level of hours to remove heavy metals, but we have a lot of other things in the water that need to be removed first.

[OnceFired]

The filter I have currently is a 5-gallon bucket, filled with layers of increasingly fine gravel & sand. All told, there is approximately 3"-4" of space at the top of the bucket - the rest is filled with filtering material.

River rock 1" gravel from big-box home improvement store
Medium gravel 1/2" gravel, same
Small gravel <1/4" size, same
Medium sand 50# silica sand, same (not all of it used!)
Fine sand 2# bag from aquarium supply store

The predominant material in the filter is the medium sand, by far.

The filter is doing an EXCELLENT job at eliminating particulate matter. The water is the color of iced-tea, but otherwise sparkling in nature. Absolutely nothing floating it it that I can see. I have read research that the heavy metal content of the water is actually filtered quite well with a biosand filter. That said, I am not getting the "bio" part of the biosand filter so the filtration I am getting is definitely sub-par at the moment.

I think the water color will also be addressed as I get the biological layer in place. I am getting similar results now with the brass water as I did with tap water with black food coloring mixed in. That's a dye, and is much harder to filter out.

The first bucket (on top of the main filter) has window screen duct taped to the mouth, so that is functioning as a big chunk filter. I can add a paint strainer to clean up more of that stuff. But frankly the water coming out of the cement mixer after washing the brass doesn't have too much chunky bits in it anyway. The rain water on the other hand, gets LOTS of dirt in it from the roof.

I think my next step is to grab a bucket of water from the local lake to put that in to jump-start the biologicals.

As for the longer term goal, this is the idea I had in mind:

1) 55-gallon drums filled with water will help cool the warehouse / factory floor area (thermal mass & fans)
2) Some of those drums could perform double-duty filtering the brass wash water (closed loop, separated from others)
3) Keeping the filtration going through a drum allows for nearly-sealed hands-off collection of disposable material when it comes time

I think what I could do is add #4...

4) After one or more passes through biosand filter, pump the water outdoors for Texas Sunshine Destillation, then back in when it's clean again.

This minimizes contact with the materials, minimizes area of impact, and allows them to be portable.

In addition, all of these things will last FAR longer than any store-bought filters that have to be replaced constantly.

That was the idea: self-sufficiency in economical form.

[sdcitizen]

The bacteria you want are in soil, a scoop of dirt, some sugar or molasses, and dirty water are all they need to get growing. The upper temp limit for them to function is about 95 F, and a slow steady recirculation of water through the sand is the best way to get them to work. Once you get to a 55 gallon drum of sand size, you could put in small amounts of dirty cleaning solvent (non-chlorinated) to feed the bugs the carbon they need. Time is your friend here.

[kfarm]

I'm sorry, if water was that limited I'd move. Better yet just use a dry method.

[Walter Laich]

Some folks see a challenge in things and want to solve it.
.
Keep it up OnceFired.

--from a guy that is standing in water outside, again--"but they said it will go down..."

[W.R.Buchanan]

How much water are we talking about per day?

Randy

[EDG]

I once worked in a company that had a captive chromic acid chem film process.

When the chromic acid needed to be changed it was buffered with a base. The tank was allowed to sit until all of the chromates had precipitated out of the solution. The neutralized water went down the drain. The chromate sludge was scraped out of the bottom of the tank and was sent to an EPA approved landfill.

[jmorris]

I too would likely stick with dry methods before adding even more work to the wet process but...

I would be interested to see how a DE pool filter would work in your process. They are good for a large amount of water (thousands of gallons) for a long time.

[dudel]

I'm sorry, if water was that limited I'd move. Better yet just use a dry method.

Dry has issues as well if you're trying to control pollutants. Lots of lead dust coming off of the dry method. I suspect a good dust collector might help control it though.

[OnceFired]

So here's my thinking on the whole dry vs wet route...

1) Texas has a dust & wind issue
2) Texas does not have an excessive water issue (usually) and in fact typically has a too-little water issue

Any dry method of disposing of these elements is harder to control. Water passed through an otherwise sealed container is MUCH better than dealing with dust which is frankly a pain in the butt, and far more expensive. Ever look at airborne mold cleanup? I'm sure the EPA could come up with something regarding lead dust, if they haven't already.

So, the idea is to keep things wet & contained. If we have a spill, it's not a big deal as it will largely evaporate, and its likelihood to be ingested/inhaled is very low.

Overall, the plan is to use the treated water back on the grounds in some limited form. For landscaping, etc. We aren't planning on watering a golf course with it, but we may as well use it for as many purposes as we economically can.

In terms of volume, that's a good question.

Figure 5 gallons of 223 brass (roughly 80 lbs) needs about 5 gallons of water. If we process 1000 lbs of 223 brass = 200 gallons of water, roughly speaking. How often that occurs is the real question. If we do 1,000 lbs per week that's roughly 800 gallons of water per month.

Our plans are for MUCH more than this. Call that 73,000 cases a week, or 1/4 million per month. We want 4x that per caliber to start on rifle, more on pistol. That's at least 3200 gallons per caliber per month.

Hence the desire to recycle the water. When you're on city water, it's less of an issue. But pulling 3200 gallons of water per month out of a well X the number of calibers gets onerous. In Texas, in what are typical drought conditions, it translates directly into cash we save. The deeper our well needs to be, the more it will cost us.

And of course we could be putting nearly 100% of that back into the ground pretty much as good as how we got it out AFTER we've used it many times.

But I don't trust the EPA on things like this.

Consider the following info I found on the EPA site today while writing this.

http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/outdoor.html
http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/indoor.html

The EPA apparently cannot agree with itself on how much water the typical US family uses per day. One source says 320 gallons per day, the other says 400. They both agree it's about 30% outdoor, 70% indoor.

The idea of this business being able to claim, and prove, it is having a lesser impact on the environment than a single average US household is enormously useful. But math alone doesn't give the statement the power, as sad as that is. SHOWING it happen, along with the math, is what people respond to.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OF:: I hear you on the Enviro stuff. However I think you are over estimating the impact of your water usage. 3200 gallons a month is nothing 10 times that is really nothing. The average .25 Car Wash uses more than 3200 gallons a day!

If you were to get a water sample and have it tested to find out exactly what is in it and how harmful it could be, you could decide better what to do with it. If you can safely use it for irrigation right out of the tumbler then it is being recycled directly back into your aquifer and the dirt will purify it. This is by far the cheapest and easiest solution to your problem. I seriously doubt you are going to suck your well dry using that much water, and especially if you are dumping it right back on the ground after use. Even if you have to deepen your well it would be cheaper to do that than buy all the equipment to filter and recycle your used water continuously.

If you have stuff in it that must be neutralized then I would suggest consulting outfits that purify water on a large scale on site. Outfits like Power Companies that use Cooling Towers can show you what they do and you can scale it down to your size requirements. In fact an internet search should be able to turn up enough information on water purification for you to make an informed decision. The stuff doesn't need to be drinkable it just needs to not kill anything.

Keep in mind that all filtration systems with reusable filters of any kind must be back flushed to clean the filters. This usually takes nearly as much water as you filtered in the first place. You could go directly to an RO System, which I can guarantee will make nearly perfect water out of raw sewage, however you still have to back flush that system and then you have to deal with that contaminated water after the fact. That would be a problem as that water will be super concentrated!

However none of this is relevant until you sample your effluent water and find out what is in it that is bad, and how much is there. IE Parts Per Million.

Lots to consider here and I just hope you see fit to ramp this operation up in small increments so that if you find out you can't supply your operation with brass for some reason, or find out you can't sell as much as you think you can, you will not have created a large facility that is basically useless and a severe financial burden that will bankrupt you.

In this endeavor there are many political things that could put you out business. And the people who would create them probably don't live in Texas and won't given damn about your loss. IE; Hildegard!

Randy

PS Hillary's real name is Hildegard! Feel free to disseminate this far and wide. She can't be allowed to insult all of us with out some battle scars!

[MaryB]

I grow this plant to eat but it is supposed to also be a good plant for heavy metal remediation because it sucks them from the ground https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_juncea

So here's my thinking on the whole dry vs wet route...

1) Texas has a dust & wind issue
2) Texas does not have an excessive water issue (usually) and in fact typically has a too-little water issue

Any dry method of disposing of these elements is harder to control. Water passed through an otherwise sealed container is MUCH better than dealing with dust which is frankly a pain in the butt, and far more expensive. Ever look at airborne mold cleanup? I'm sure the EPA could come up with something regarding lead dust, if they haven't already.

So, the idea is to keep things wet & contained. If we have a spill, it's not a big deal as it will largely evaporate, and its likelihood to be ingested/inhaled is very low.

Overall, the plan is to use the treated water back on the grounds in some limited form. For landscaping, etc. We aren't planning on watering a golf course with it, but we may as well use it for as many purposes as we economically can.

In terms of volume, that's a good question.

Figure 5 gallons of 223 brass (roughly 80 lbs) needs about 5 gallons of water. If we process 1000 lbs of 223 brass = 200 gallons of water, roughly speaking. How often that occurs is the real question. If we do 1,000 lbs per week that's roughly 800 gallons of water per month.

Our plans are for MUCH more than this. Call that 73,000 cases a week, or 1/4 million per month. We want 4x that per caliber to start on rifle, more on pistol. That's at least 3200 gallons per caliber per month.

Hence the desire to recycle the water. When you're on city water, it's less of an issue. But pulling 3200 gallons of water per month out of a well X the number of calibers gets onerous. In Texas, in what are typical drought conditions, it translates directly into cash we save. The deeper our well needs to be, the more it will cost us.

And of course we could be putting nearly 100% of that back into the ground pretty much as good as how we got it out AFTER we've used it many times.

But I don't trust the EPA on things like this.

Consider the following info I found on the EPA site today while writing this.

http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/outdoor.html
http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/indoor.html

The EPA apparently cannot agree with itself on how much water the typical US family uses per day. One source says 320 gallons per day, the other says 400. They both agree it's about 30% outdoor, 70% indoor.

The idea of this business being able to claim, and prove, it is having a lesser impact on the environment than a single average US household is enormously useful. But math alone doesn't give the statement the power, as sad as that is. SHOWING it happen, along with the math, is what people respond to.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Surprisingly I was driving along the 101 today listening to Fox News on Sirius XM(114) and there was a commercial I have heard many times before but this thread was fresh in my mind and it finally hit home.

It was for an outfit named "Rain For Rent". They advertise that if you Recycle Water, Pump Water, Filter Water, or Store Water in Tanks, they are your goto outfit.

This sounds like a one stop shop for your brass cleaning needs. http://www.rainforrent.com/

Just happens to be branches in 11 cities in Texas!

I think this may solve all your problems.

Randy

[jmorris]

So here's my thinking on the whole dry vs wet route...

1) Texas has a dust & wind issue
2) Texas does not have an excessive water issue (usually) and in fact typically has a too-little water issue

Any dry method of disposing of these elements is harder to control. Water passed through an otherwise sealed container is MUCH better than dealing with dust which is frankly a pain in the butt, and far more expensive. Ever look at airborne mold cleanup? I'm sure the EPA could come up with something regarding lead dust, if they haven't already.

I know businesses that do both dry and wet on large scales and have even built some very large wet tumblers for one, the other has a room full of cement mixers and uses corncob.

Corncob lasts for a lot more than one batch of brass and water cleans them faster. Either way, I don't think I would send a sample of you water into the EPA for testing. They just might come out to see what your doing, would be a real PITA if they forced you to treat your water as a HAZMAT.

[W.R.Buchanan]

When I said get the water tested I damn sure didn't mean send it to the EPA.

I hope you are smarter than that !

If you open that can of worms I doubt you would be able to close it back up and your whole enterprise would go down the drain,,, not to be cornfused with the drain your water should be going down.

You would get it tested by a local independent lab and the results would be FYI only. Then you could decide what to do.

Randy

[edler7]

Get yourself a small above ground swimming pool with a pump and sand filter. Wally World has some pretty small ones. Dump the waste into the pool and circulate through the filter.

You out can also get metal sequestrants for pool water. They won't remove the metals, but they will keep it "bound up".

[jmorris]

This is one of the wet tumbler setups I built before the drums were "ringed" and slots were added for water into and out of the drums a DE or fiber filter could just be plumed into and out of the large tank itself.