What 45-70 Cast Bullets Do You Size Down For Your 45 Colt?

[9.3X62AL]

More Lyman mould design poetry, eh? I own two of these in the #454424 flavor, the older an Ideal single-cavity and a newer but certainly not "new" Lyman doppelganger. Both produce what I term a sort of "squatty", short 455" semi-wadcutter casting form weighing 255-257 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. Both have 3 full-caliber drive bands and squared-form lube groove, but the older form's bands are about .05" longer each and the lube groove a little narrower than the 2-banger's products. I can't tell a difference in performance between the two on paper, but only use the 2-holer due to concern about consistency that is probably unjustified. They run to 1200 FPS without leading in my BisHawk sized at .454", though most of my loads in this roller now hover around 1000 FPS. Megafauna may have run rampant in California during my youth, but as I approach the heart of my retirement years their numbers seem to be in decline.

[Nueces]

In the 70s, before the current cast bullet renaissance, Lyman commonly produced moulds that cast 0.311' for 30 calibers and 0.455" or so for 45s. The magazine writers of the time howled that these were too large to size to the 'proper' 0.308" and 0.451". The factories responded and we now have what we have.

Thank goodness for our semi-custom makers. These are the good old days.

[RobS]

I forgot that there are people who have used the Lee 457-340 RF and sized them down for Ruger 45 Colt loads but I can't remember if they were able to crimp in the crimp groove or just over the front drive band in order to get the COAL for chambering. I sized down the Lee 457-405 RF for my 454 Casull and it was an "ok" affair. If you are going to size down a boolit more than .003-.004" it does help to size/lube to let's say .454 in your situation and then come back and size again if you need a smaller diameter, .452.

[ballistim]

Good Old Boy, It's either a bean counter or a case of "We've always done it that way, so that is how it's done, dad gun it!" When black powder was The Only Fuel 125 years ago, and either pure lead or small-percentage lead-tin alloys were the bullet metal, an undersized slug in a 45-70 could be reasonably expected to "bump up" from the low-order detonation provided by The Holy Black. Nowadays, people love to use uber-hard alloys with their smokeless loadings, some of which aren't high-pressure at all, and the likelihood of significant bump-up is quite remote. So, you better make sure that 1) your bullets fit the throat and grooves of the firearm you are dealing with and 2) none of your tooling used to process the brass reduces the diameter of your bullets during the loading sequence. The two chief offenders here are a) too-small expander plugs and b) improper use or over-application of taper crimp dies.

I purchased an old single cavity Lee 457-405-F single cavity mold almost 2 years ago after reading 9.3X62 AL's 45-70 duplex posts & was fortunate enough to have it drop at .459 since both my 1895 & H&R BC slugged exactly .457-what are the odds of that? I sized at .458 & lubed w/ BAC w/alloy at 14 BHN. Accuracy with the duplex load was impressive with no leading or unburnt powder, and I now have a low cost functional load for both my 45/70's. I was concerned about an oversize bore & undersized mold, so am fortunate they weren't. I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but felt part of this applied to the post & wanted to thank 9.3X62AL for giving me the chance to have an accurate low cost load that works out great for me & my guns. I haven't purchased a chrono but would like to find out since I'm guessing it would make a nice deer load. I think I might have been fortunate enough to get the sizing/hardness combination to work with the charge used, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

[9.3X62AL]

That load (6.0 x 4198 under 48.0 x WC-860) yields about 1300 FPS from the now-departed Ruger #1 and its replacement Marlin 1895. Pretty much a blackpowder duplicator load in my experience.

[GoodOlBoy]

So the argument becomes. OK Keith DID design a 45 bullet, but he didn't design it to use X alloy that would drop 270 grains despite that having been the most COMMON grain weight it was cast in since it's implementation? wow........ ok......

Anyway back to the OPs question there are ALOT of options from the ultra light to the ultra heavy for the 45 long colt without having to go as far afield as resizing 45-70 bullets. However many HAVE done the resizing with good results. I would still like to see what you come up with and how it shoots for you.

GoodOlBoy

[ballistim]

That load (6.0 x 4198 under 48.0 x WC-860) yields about 1300 FPS from the now-departed Ruger #1 and its replacement Marlin 1895. Pretty much a blackpowder duplicator load in my experience.

I've used your duplex load above using both WC-860 & WC-872, both work well & very little difference between the two in my guns.

[jaydub in wi]

I thought that the rcbs 45 270 saa was designed by Mr. Dave Scovill of handloader magazine.

[GoodOlBoy]

jaydub I think you may be right that Dave Scovill DID design the rcbs 45 270 SAA. Like i said it is often listed as an "improved" Keith. Well somebody had to "improve it" so there ya go. It is a VERY effective bullet if it feed for you.

GoodOlBoy

[nighthunter]

I size down Mihec's 460-122. I powder coat them then size to .457 and then resize to .452. They shoot very nice.

Nighthunter

[GoodOlBoy]

I have no evidence other than my assertion that there were bullets I once possessed and are now long gone that a H&G mold ever dropped a 270grain +- Keith bullet. For accuracy sake everybody should consider RobS to have the correct information. I was wrong. I am wrong. I apologize.

Thanks Rob for taking the discussion to pms.

GoodOlBoy

[44MAG#1]

I have sized down NEI 520 gr bullets and have loaded them in 45 Colt cases and used them in a 12 inch Encore in 454 Casull. Runs 1250 fps chronoed. Nice load.

[Cornbread]

I use the Lee 457-340-F sometimes in 454 Casull and 45 Colt. I bought it for my 45-70 but it ended up liking larger diameter bullets better (.460 - .461ish) so I got a 350gr mold from NOE that drops .461 with my alloy. The Lee 457-340-F mold was cheap and casts great so I keep it and use it for 454 and 45 colt sized down to .454 over a load of IMR-4227. It's not my best performing bullet for these guns but it works and sometimes it's fun to have different bullets to play with.

[JSH]

LBT, Keith and Mauser just to name a few, have become a some what generic term. Or, "style".
It it is one or the other but it can't be both. A tip of the hat to those of you here that researched in depth trying to clone to the best of your findings these designs.

[44MAG#1]

This is not about "who designed what" it is about sizing down 45/70 bullets to use in a 45 Colt.
Anyone that is a Diehard Keith fan knows what he designed that became famous. His alloy at that time was 1-16 tin lead. Keith fans (???????) don't???

[NVScouter]

Just the LEE 340g sized to .454. Its a nasty round full house or even starting data. I push it over 1100fps in a 4" and over 1300fps in a 7.5". Its a good bear load but I dont shoot it much any more, maybe 3 times a year. I'm happier in the 255-300g weights for 99% of what I want. The generic 255 cowboy design at 1400fps is fantastic for about everything.

[Thin Man]

I have been moving boolit diameters both up and down when loading for a Webley MK VI. The first project involved a Winchester mold 45/60 sized down to .456. Loaded in 45AR cases (pistol had already been "cut" before it came to me), the boolits could not be seated to a COL that would not bind in the chambers (long fat nose) and leave comfortable room in the case for powder w/o pressure concerns. That took me to the Lyman 454190, hand lubed and crimped in the top lube groove. These went into the chambers without issue. Loaded over either 3.3 or 3.5 Bullseye, both loads hit at the sights. No pressure signs, clearly not over loaded and a very close copy of the original loading. Joy and happiness.

Thin Man