That is something you need to consider - how much are you actually going to shoot? I was reloading for my son and I and we were basically shooting every week in ATA events or practice. Do a cost analysis and there is nothing wrong with shooting the Remington gun clubs. Look for sales when stocking up.Originally Posted by TXGunNut
After you study the Lyman handbook (I recommend it too) and the powder manufacturers' websites, standardize on one hull, primer, and wad. The Remington Gun Club hulls are good and other common one-piece hulls can be loaded with the same primer, powder, and wad combination (but not necessarily the same powder charge). Don't get carried away trying to use a variety of components. Use only published load data for guidance and you'll do fine.
Is it possible to reload with those old copper bbs that almost all of us have laying around? I know they are about 2 times bigger than 7.5 shot but i have 1000s laying around and dont have a use for them at the moment. any thoughts?
Always been a fan of the Winchester hulls, some of the WW promos are as good as or same as AA's. Good section on hulls in the Lyman book.
Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
Partial to the Winchester AA's also. I use a Pacific DL-366 and when my nephews are here we reload a lot. Watch Craigslist for people selling equipment, I picked up 50 pounds of #7 1/2 for $30 that way.
And I find my reloads are more consistent than factory shells.
Bb gun shot are harder than the steel shot commonly reloaded for steel only areas. Special thick wads and different, slower powders are needed and in the end you won't have the pattern density for shooting clays. Buy some proper lead shot in the right size. You need the lyman book.
"Is all this REALLY necessary?"
Local club is best. They usually buy by the pallet and resell to the members. Several clubs I know of have a quarterly group buy on shot. Reclaimed shot is also pretty cheap and an online search will get you current prices.
Shot string length doesn't matter and especially if you are missing behind the bird. This isn't corrected by changing ammunition, it is corrected by changing your technique by increasing your lead on the target.
Shot string testing indicates even a teal at 40y will move only 6-12 inches at the same time it takes for the entire shot string to pass that distance. Remember, we are talking a 40-50mph bird versus a shot cloud at 800mph. Pattern and lead are what matters. If you have a good pattern and proper lead, you will hit the bird.
If you are shooting behind the bird, a short shot string will miss just as much as a long shot string. Shoot behind the bird means you must give it more lead ie in front of the bird.
The purpose of lighter than standard loads, such as 7/8oz in the 12ga is for economy and recoil reduction. I load 3/4oz in both 12ga and 20ga for those reasons.
Even so, but what is often missed is the VALUE of your handloads. You are making custom tuned ammunition for your shotgun for about the same or slightly less than the junk promo loads. If I'm going to spend $4-5 for ammo, I want it to be loads that will be best in my gun, not a mass marketed "hope this works" pattern.
See above. Custom tuned great patterning ammo for $5/box or junk patterning promo loads?
Yes. Use wads and data specifically for steel shot. The BBs are copper plated steel and must be treated as steel. Do NOT load steel shot in wads made for soft lead shot. You will ruin your barrel.
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
Live generously.
When figuring cost of reloading never forget to factor in the enjoyment of making your own ammunition. Part of the reason I shoot, cast boolits, and reload is because I enjoy doing it. As the add says Priceless!
Blacksmith
S. G. G. = Sons of the Greatest Generation. Too old to run, too proud to hide; we will stand our ground and take as many as we can with us!
reloading, for any cartridge or shot shell, is an enjoyable past time and worth the effort in many case's.
410 and 28 gauge really do benifit from handloading while 20 and 12 kind of run equal cost wise.
What needs to be taken into account, and most "average" shotgunners won't take the time, is patterning your loads.
reloading your own shot shells allows you to tune the load to the gun and, in some case's, adjust your pattern to be more in line with where your looking.
However until you actually pattern a load in your gun you'll never know where it hits or how big the holes are in your pattern.
Don Zutz used to write for Handloader mag and had a bunch of articles on shot shell reloading as have several others that have written in Handloader.
Not sure how hard it would be to Google them or get Wolf publishing to send them to you but all the articles are good reading!
I will agree that custom tayloring loads specific to your game or target is well worth the effort, having said that I have also bought specific shot shells by the case just to get the hulls!
Works better on some of those family outtings where everyone shoots: they have fun I get the hulls!
By the way your gonna get tired of making shells with that Lee tool and quick, LOL!
Suggest you go on the hunt for a MEC Sizemaster in 12 gauge. This is a single stage loader with the patented collet sizeing ring and this is a much better press than the 600 Jr.
If you take your time one can be found at a reasonable price, new ones are just to darn high!
Check Craigslist, and gun shows. Ask around some of the local ranges you may have someone locally doing just reloading supplies, in many case's he will also handle used and new reloading gear.
Agreed on the patterning, my 20ga shotgun really likes the WW Super-X so I keep 4-5 cases on hand. My shooting buddy usually shoots 28's so he loads his own, of course. He just loaded up a box of .410 brass with BP, probably have a hard time finding that on the shelf, lol.
My research led me to the MEC Sizemaster, just can't make the numbers work for my needs. When that changes I'll have a pretty good pile of hulls built up.
Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
Having shot over 500+ patterns on a patterning plate I would strongly disagree. Promotional loads use soft shot which means your patterns are approx 10-12% more open (ie one less choke than premium factory target loads). This is not necessarily a bad thing depending on the ranges you are shooting. You can simply duplicate premium loads by going 1 choke tighter until you run out of choke.See above. Custom tuned great patterning ammo for $5/box or junk patterning promo loads?
As far as the custom tune thing take a close look at your bagged shot, even the so called premium hard shot. You can't buy bagged shot with the uniformity that is used in the target loads by Federal, Remington and Winchester. If you mic the shot you will find variations in shot size of generally at least 1 to 1 1/2 shot sizes in most bagged shot which increases the shot string length and pattern density. Cut open an STS, Fed or WW premium load and check the shot uniformity, you'll see the difference. You won't find any top shooters in any discipline shooting reloads in any tournament. If you think there is a lot of misinformation and wives tales about cast bullets look at shotguns,chokes and patterns. There isn't one guy in a thousand who has ever patterned his gun and if he did it was 1 or 2 patterns. There is a ton of BS out there regarding patterns and chokes.
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
Ray Chapman would disagree with you about factory loads!
Ray had / has a collection of factory loaded cartridges and each of them cost him a major match during the time he shot IPSC.
Several had no powder, several had no priming compound, his favorite one had no flash hole!
Ray never fired a round he didn't make himself even more so during a major IPSC Match!
I will agree with you that a lot of BS exists about both patterns and chokes and I think your 1 guy in a thousand is a little conservative for patterning, I figure closer to 5000, LOL!
I will also agree you've done way more patterning than I have but dislike plates, prefer paper they can be stacked on top of each other for a real idea of what your pattern is.
However it is a lot of work which is why it isn't done much.
I pattern quite a bit too and have done so for many customers over the years. The promo stuff also use less quality wads, primers, powder, and sometimes hulls. Winchester 100rd packs sold at Walmart for $25 sure aren't using AA hulls. You will also find promo loads have larger holes in the patterns no matter what choke you use.
Yes I'm aware of the tolerances in shot size. Recall we are also discussing our handloads versus promo junk ammo, not versus premium target ammo. Big difference. Shot string length has no bearing on hits versus miss. If you are going to miss with one, you would miss with the other too.As far as the custom tune thing take a close look at your bagged shot, even the so called premium hard shot. You can't buy bagged shot with the uniformity that is used in the target loads by Federal, Remington and Winchester. If you mic the shot you will find variations in shot size of generally at least 1 to 1 1/2 shot sizes in most bagged shot which increases the shot string length and pattern density.
Premium loads absolutely. Be aware I wasn't claiming to compare handloads with premium target ammo, but to the promo target ammo. The reason premium target ammo is better than promo ammo or handloads is because their top quality components go in that ammo and the crappy soft, round shot that isn't good enough goes in the promo ammo. Reason I reload is I can't afford $8/box ammo so I get as good as I can using $4/box reloads between 3/4oz and 7/8oz loads. If it were up to me, I'd shoot with nothing but Remington STS, but finances don't allow.Cut open an STS, Fed or WW premium load and check the shot uniformity, you'll see the difference.
Yeah, several reasons. Usually the top shooters are sponsored so they get free ammo. Most registered tournaments forbid the use of reloads. Top shooters spend the time practicing and don't need to make time to reload. Guy at work used to be sponsored by Remington for sporting clays and FITASC. His sponsorship included a pallet of Remington STS ammo every month. Yeah, I wouldn't shoot reloads either if I were him.You won't find any top shooters in any discipline shooting reloads in any tournament.
I've patterned a lot of guns and ammo combinations. Several shotgun forums also have many members that pattern their loads.There isn't one guy in a thousand who has ever patterned his gun and if he did it was 1 or 2 patterns.
About as much misinformation about shot string length being important.There is a ton of BS out there regarding patterns and chokes.
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
Live generously.
Does loading shotshells make sense today?
Yes! Oh I know how wally world and the other big box stores have those economy packs of shotshells. But if you took one of those econo shells apart, you would find soft chilled shot, a small charge of very fast powder, and the cheapest thin wad they could find. Loaded inside a hull that’s NOT made to be reloaded, in some cases attempting to reload them could be dangerous.
Now take one or more of those cheapy shells to the pattern board. Ummm, you do pattern your shotgun,,,right? No? Then how do you really know how the chokes really work? Anyway, the cheapo shells will have blotchy patterns, holes a bird, rabbit, or clays could sit in unharmed!
You can not reload shells cheaper than those econo shells. Can’t be done! Especially with what shot, powder, primers, and wads cost these days. But why would you WANT to?
What you want to load are shells that are as good as, or even better than the top of the line target shells put out by Winchester, Remington, and Federal. That would be the AA, STS and gold medal. To do that you must either buy the loaded shells, shoot them to get empties, or buy once fired empties. The new AA is no where near as good as the older compression formed AA. That leaves the STS and gold medal.
To duplicate the performance of the original loading, you need to buy all top of the line components. No skimping here. Magnum shot,(don’t let that name fool you), is high antimony shot. It’s harder than plain old chilled shot. The hardness translates into better patterns. It’s what the factory STS and others target shells have in them. Wads; The big 3 all sell their wads for reloading. They all work, but you can save some $ by buying claybuster wads. They’re made to the same dimensions as the wad they’re replacing, just cheaper. Some say the plastic isn’t as soft, but I’ve found them to work just fine. Powder; Just about any of the shotshell powders will work well. Just be sure of your recipe and follow it exactly. Primers; Again they all work well, be sure to match them to your recipe.
No, steel airgun BB's cannot be used in a shotshell. They are just plain too hard! No where will you find load data for that. Steel shot made for non-toxic waterfowl loads is actually soft, low carbon steel that is heat treated to anneal it to a very soft consistency. Then the steel wads are way thicker and the shot cup is much deeper. Often they have no cushioning section because steel is less dense that lead. It takes more room for steel to get the required weight for the payload.
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I buy reclaimed shot for $28 for 25 lbs. it is clean and has been re graphite coated. look for vendors or web sites that sell reclaimed shot if you want to beat the price of off the shelf shells. It cost me $4.08 to load 25 shells to what I call Win AA equivalent. That's using 1-1/8 oz shot. I need to drop down to 1 oz shot since I'm mostly shooting Skeet.
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Samuel Adams
Sam
Beg to differ on you with that,my pattern tests don't show that. I stand by my original statement that going 1 choke tighter gives the essentially the same result till you run out of choke.You will also find promo loads have larger holes in the patterns no matter what choke you use.
Total up the number of shooters in clay target games and just because a couple guys on a forum pattern I'd still be willing to put my money on the 1 in 1000 number.I've patterned a lot of guns and ammo combinations. Several shotgun forums also have many members that pattern their loads.
We were discussing handloads that's why I brought up the shot. Magnum shot was what I was talking about as far as shot size variations. Using mag bagged shot you might pick up a couple percentage points in pattern density over promo ammo but not enough to matter. Using reclaimed shot or reduced payload weight loads instead of the full weight promo payload you won't pattern as well as the promo's. The only time shot string length doesn't matter is on a strait away shot. Any crossing target it certainly does matter.Recall we are also discussing our handloads versus promo junk ammo, not versus premium target ammo. Big difference. Shot string length has no bearing on hits versus miss.
Hey if a fellow wants to load, so be it. I've done the patterns and the math. When promo ammo is in the $5/box neighborhood I buy all I can. YMMV
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
The longer the shot string the more lead you can have and still hit the bird. I have played around shooting hard crossing birds trying to see if I could miss in front of them. I had to get alot further in front of the bird than I thought I would (about double what I started with). Of all the people I have helped coach I can not think of one that missed a hard crossing bird in front of it.
Best I can find is that a shot string will be about 6'-8' long http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...gh-speed-video. At 40 mph and an 8' shot string the bird will move 5.1" in the time that it takes for the shot string to go by the bird. 3.8" for 6' shot string. At 30 mph it would be 3.8" and 2.9".
Of course we are gonna have to factor in the width of our pattern as well. I have known people who shoot cylinder/cylinder and guys that shoot full/full. Some of them master class shooters. Some of the best advise I got was to just put a choke in the gun and forget about it. Focus on getting a good read on the bird instead of worrying about trivial things.
Good shooting.
Jerry Jr.
Last edited by southpaw; 01-04-2015 at 09:24 PM.
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.... but what do I know, I'm just a dumb farmer. ~ My Dad.
NRA LIFE MEMBER Upgraded to Endowment Member 5-23-14
I strongly disagree. Here is more testing, math, and results showing shot string length doesn't matter in wingshooting.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...illy_122008wo/
If we consider the significant target zone for the clay bird to be the standard 30-inch circle the entire industry uses for patterning and gauging pellet distribution, it’s easy to see that even if the target velocity is increased and the shot string velocity decreased to unrealistic levels, and the shot string length extended out to extremes, that shot string length still doesn’t matter.
So what does matter and what does all the math mean to a shooter? It means don’t sweat the shot string length. Instead, divert that energy to patterning your shotguns with the loads you intend to use in the field. Look for “holes” in your patterns or for uneven distribution of shot. It’s those holes a bird really can escape through, so plugging those holes are what make the difference between a hit and a miss.
Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...#ixzz3Nu57Ff8f
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
Live generously.
Your bird numbers are generous. Tests in my link above indicate a 50mph bird moves only 1-2 feet by the time the shot arrives. The shot string length varies from 7-12 feet. And it is exactly the width of the pattern that helps to show shot string length is meaningless. If you can't hit a bird with a 30 inch wide cloud of pellets, string length isn't going to save you one bit.
"A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold
Live generously.
40 mph bird
8' shot string.
1100fps
40mph= 58.67fps 8 /1100 * 58.67 *12 = 5.12"
30mph= 44fps 8/1100 * 44 * 12 = 3.84"inches not feet! I will now go correct the other post darn shift button
Distance bird moves in the time it takes for your shot to reach the target.
50 mph = 73.3fps
40 yards (120')
1100 fps
120/1100 * 73.3 = 7.996'
For your statement to be true the bird would have to be 10 yards away.
30/1100 * 73.3 = 1.999'
I am with fecmech on this one.
Jerry Jr
And we all know that our shot is slowing down as soon as it leaves our barrel thus making the number bigger.
Last edited by southpaw; 01-04-2015 at 09:27 PM.
You can't buy experience, but you'll pay for it.
.... but what do I know, I'm just a dumb farmer. ~ My Dad.
NRA LIFE MEMBER Upgraded to Endowment Member 5-23-14
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