high velocity with cast.

[35 shooter]

Now that's the spirit Bjornb! And again hats off to the accomplishments already made!
Don't know about a xcb rifle, but following all this sure has me thinking about picking up an xcb boolit mould and maybe an 06 bbl. for the encore maybe sometime in the spring.
With all the custom bbl. makers out there for the TC'S, shouldn't be much of a problem to get whatever twist i choose made up. Or a couple different twist rates and just have fun.
Might be better off going with a new bolt gun though....might warp my frame on the encore trying to get the speeds some of you guys are getting with 30 cal. now!

[cainttype]

Having toyed with more than a few wildcats, and planning to add a few more to that list soon, I agree that most ideas have either been done before or something very similar did/does exist.
The cost of "wildcatting" is substantially increased when a custom reamer is needed for the job. Add the cost of custom dies, special forming dies and reamers, costly parent casings, ect.... and it can get pretty pricey.

My recollection of the XCB, as promoted by Larry, was to use the 30-06 reamer commonly found in any gunsmith's collection that does this type of work. The long '06 neck could be retained and capacity reduced by simply short-chambering. Case capacity could easily be increased by running the reamer deeper, if desired...Dies are no problem. By shortening an '06 sizer to match your desired chamber you're in business.
All of these options were available by simply rebarreling your rifle. No modifications to the action would be needed, and even the magazine feed rails of the Mauser '98 would remain original. If you decided to go standardized in the end you always had the option of opening the chamber to the full-length 30-06...Not a bad option if you decided to sell the rifle at some point in the future.

Although there are, and have been in the past, other cartridges with similar capacities and a cast-friendly neck length it would be a tall order to provide all the options listed above.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

What I've gotten out of this thread by just reading it in one sitting today:

Use brass of the same manufacturer and lot.
Uniform the primer pocket and flash hole.
Keep neck tension on the bullet low.
Uniform the case neck thickness.
Use primers from one manufacturere and lot. (This will be tough for me.)
Try different slow burning powders that preferably fill the case.
Use a bullet matched to the velocity. Toughness is more important than hardness (think brittle).
A larger bullet diameter may help center the round in chamber/throat. Being centered is important.
Bullet alloy may not be as important as originally touted.
Bullet lube is not that important.
Consistency is king.

Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion.

As for the off-topic posts, they detracted from learning and enjoyment.

[45 2.1]

What I've gotten out of this thread by just reading it in one sitting today:

Use brass of the same manufacturer and lot.
Uniform the primer pocket and flash hole.
Keep neck tension on the bullet low.
Uniform the case neck thickness.
Use primers from one manufacturere and lot. (This will be tough for me.)
Try different slow burning powders that preferably fill the case.
Use a bullet matched to the velocity. Toughness is more important than hardness (think brittle).
A larger bullet diameter may help center the round in chamber/throat. Being centered is important.
Bullet alloy may not be as important as originally touted.
Bullet lube is not that important.
Consistency is king.

Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion.

As for the off-topic posts, they detracted from learning and enjoyment.

Best list for discussion from someone who doesn't claim HV success I've seen so far...... some of the points are valid and some have little importance. Anyone care to get on topic and discuss them?

[smokeywolf]

What I've gotten out of this thread by just reading it in one sitting today:

Use brass of the same manufacturer and lot.
Uniform the primer pocket and flash hole.
Keep neck tension on the bullet low.
Uniform the case neck thickness.
Use primers from one manufacturere and lot. (This will be tough for me.)
Try different slow burning powders that preferably fill the case.
Use a bullet matched to the velocity. Toughness is more important than hardness (think brittle).
A larger bullet diameter may help center the round in chamber/throat. Being centered is important.
Bullet alloy may not be as important as originally touted.
Bullet lube is not that important.
Consistency is king.

Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion.

As for the off-topic posts, they detracted from learning and enjoyment.

Although I'm not in the same league as several of the ballisticians on this thread, I'd like to add a my 2 cents to Rattlesnake Charlie's post.

I'm thinking that as velocity is increased:
alloy becomes more critical (to prevent sagging and stripping)
lube characteristics more critical
bearing surface (relative to mass and total length) and centroid of the boolit, more critical
and finally (in hushed tone) twist rate

smokeywolf

[Larry Gibson]

What I've gotten out of this thread by just reading it in one sitting today:

Use brass of the same manufacturer and lot.
Uniform the primer pocket and flash hole.
Keep neck tension on the bullet low.
Uniform the case neck thickness.
Use primers from one manufacturere and lot. (This will be tough for me.)
Try different slow burning powders that preferably fill the case.
Use a bullet matched to the velocity. Toughness is more important than hardness (think brittle).
A larger bullet diameter may help center the round in chamber/throat. Being centered is important.
Bullet alloy may not be as important as originally touted.
Bullet lube is not that important.
Consistency is king.

Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion.

As for the off-topic posts, they detracted from learning and enjoyment.

Those are all the common generic accuracy enhancers that have been known and discussed on this forum for many years by numerous of us. They have been reiterated in this thread (check out some of geargnashers posts for example) and check out the 6.5 Swede threads. The trouble is the devil is in the details and it's the details that are not addressed specifically. Also leaving out the one important aspect is dooming all this discussion to fail. Unless we understand the limitations the rifles and cartridges themselves impose we will not succeed. If we can w/o understanding those limitations then who here is shooting 2 moa or less 10 shot groups at 2700 - 3000+ fps with any regular cast bullet in a 10" twist 30-06, .308W, 7.7 Jap, 30-40, 30 Blake or whatever? How about a 12" twist "whatever"?

If "High velocity with cast" is really the subject here then we need to define 3 things (setting the objective criteria/parameters); what is "high velocity", what is an acceptable accuracy criteria and are we restricting this to specific cartridges and rifles or are we opening up to anything goes to achieve "high velocity with cast"?

If we go the latter perhaps we should also have the understanding that there will be no "winner" and thus no need for "competition". That way you just show how far you can go with your 10" twist 7.7 Jap if you want. Someone else can show how far he can push it with a 12" twist whatever and those who go "unrestricted" can show how far they can push it. No winner, no whining because you can't do that with "my regular rifle" because no one should get a "wedgie" then. Just do what you can to push to "high velocity with cast" using what you got and everyone will say "good on you, atta boy!" Oh, and perhaps some should not get upset just because someone asks; "just exactly how did you do that?" That might be asked because the person really wants to know and learn.

As to the generic accuracy enhancing steps Rattlesnake Charlie gleaned from all this; excellent......but the devil is the details of those........as smokeywolf begins pointing out........

Larry Gibson

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Can we begin adding to each item the details that will help us improve?

I'd like this to evolve into an outline that would allow focusing on each item, with details to guide and refine the process.

I'd like to provide my limited accomplishments with boolits. I shoot more handgun than rifle. With rifle I can get groups as good as factory, but have only exceeded 1,800 fps with one rifle, a .303 British No 4. I matched factory groups with my Lee C309-185 at 2450 fps (chronographed). I must add that with both cast and factory/surplus that accuracy was only minute-of-outhouse at 200 yards.

Here's to progress with our enjoyment of boolits.

[tomme boy]

Longer neck helps to keep the bullet supported and straight before it enters the rifling. If it is not in the neck it "may" let the unsupported end cock to one side or the other.

[ShooterAZ]

Yes, and I believe this is also the same reason the Loverin style boolits do pretty well too. Good throat/freebore fit.

[Bjornb]

Tommie - I assume you mean for heavy/long boolits - keeps the base and a lot of the boolit in the neck? I guess it could also add neck tension for 'breach seating'? Just more frictional surface? With the BR guys using tapered boolits that fit the throat/freebore does it make a difference? IIRC that is the object of the 30XCB?

The breech seater was just something Tim came up with so we could find out just HOW fast we could get a lead bullet to shoot before it would fly wild. If the XCB was reamed all the way out to 30-06 (or even to 30x60 like what Larry is having done), there would be enough powder space to reach those speeds without breech seating (I maxed out at around 3300 fps). The XCB cartridge, combined with a long barrel (31 inches), with the NOE XCB bullet seated normally, is capable of around 2900 fps before accuracy starts going south. That's in my rifle, and with my loading practices. Others, using other methods, may extract other results, but this is what I've been able to achieve.

Rattlesnake Charlie's list:

Use brass of the same manufacturer and lot.
Uniform the primer pocket and flash hole.
Keep neck tension on the bullet low.
Uniform the case neck thickness.
Use primers from one manufacturere and lot. (This will be tough for me.)
Try different slow burning powders that preferably fill the case.
Use a bullet matched to the velocity. Toughness is more important than hardness (think brittle).
A larger bullet diameter may help center the round in chamber/throat. Being centered is important.
Bullet alloy may not be as important as originally touted.
Bullet lube is not that important.
Consistency is king.

is very pertinent, and there's very little here that I have disagreements with. Maybe I'm partial to Lars 2700+ lube, but that's about it.
As your speed increases, you'll see very soon what DOESN'T work.

[cbrick]

Bjornb, quite impressive results with lino, are you still planning the other alloy tests that you where blending? Was discussed somewhere within these 500+ posts. Comparisons of different alloys could still prove quite interesting.

Rick

[Bjornb]

Bjornb, quite impressive results with lino, are you still planning the other alloy tests that you where blending? Was discussed somewhere within these 500+ posts. Comparisons of different alloys could still prove quite interesting.

Rick

Hi Rick,
I tried a few rounds loaded with heat treated straight WW, BHN ca.30 (LBT gauge). They went wide, not sure why (My Lino bullet are air cooled). I have these bullets cast up and aging: Straight WW, WQ and HT, 87/12/1 WQ and HT. What I'm doing now that I'm done chasing top speed, is trying to load for accuracy (sub-MOA) at around 2700 fps. Once I have succeeded in dialing in a load, I'll use that as a base line and shoot the different alloys. I'll be posting everything.

(BTW my heat treating consisted of heating to 460 degrees for 1 hour+, then quenching in a water/antifreeze mix at 0 degrees F).

[castalott]

ok...I'll play a little but you guys will laugh at my lack of good results.

20 years ago I shot 311332 ( weighed 200 instead of 180 like the book claimed) into 3 moa at 100 yds. Not 3 or 5 but how many you wanted to shoot. 20 shots would , for the most part, stay in 3 moa. I used this load to practice field positions out to 3 or 400 yds. The load shot way better than I can in field conditions. ( I'm not that good a shot.)

ok...the load...

311332 out of WW water dropped and inspected very close. The lube was alox and the boolets got a coat of Lee alox too. They fell out of the mold at .310 and I 'sized' them in a .311 die to only add lube. The noses were .301 and engraved when loading.

WLR and 4831 powder produced the power. It was a full charge and made an honest 2450 fps. That was above what my loading manual said you could / should do. I was trying to keep peak pressure below the curve for alloy strength and I think that is essential.

The gas check was a homemade aluminum with a tool to size it onto the shank. The sizing die never touched it. I think this is important. Every recovered boolit had the gas check shank shortened, squared off and filled out to groove diameter. In other words, the pressure of the load forced the gas check shank to become a plain based balanced boolit protected by the homemade check.

Now this load isn't the velocity you are talking about but it was above my book listing.

Ok...flame suit on...carry on

Dale

[swheeler]

And the cartridge was? 30-06 I'm guessing

[castalott]

oh...sorry 308

[Smoke4320]

I just wish the powers that have accomplished this feat would take rattlesnake charlies list (which is a very good start for jacketed reloading accuracy. which I did for years as a 1000 yd Bench rest shooter) break it down item by item and give some details for what works for them
Its to all of our benefit if we share our knowledge .. maybe its spurs someone else to find the next jump in velocity/accuracy with cast bullets

[45 2.1]

how dose one mesure these to no if they are good or bad. what tools so not walkin blind.

I just wish the powers that have accomplished this feat would take rattlesnake charlies list (which is a very good start for jacketed reloading accuracy. which I did for years as a 1000 yd Bench rest shooter) break it down item by item and give some details for what works for them

Once we get enough people wanting to discuss each item, that can happen.

[castalott]

Dale actually I do find that very interesting from a 308 Win was your twist at 1- 12 or 10.
Just wondering because some of the 308 are twisted with the 1-12 .

Hi Sgt Mike! It was a Ruger 77V but I don't remember the twist. Dale

[leadman]

I have had similar results as bjornb with different alloys. I tried the same bhn with different alloys and found the heat treated linotype gave me better results in velocity, accuracy, and lack of leading. The only reason I can think of that lino works better is the lower lead content and higher antimony.
I'm giving up the 30 caliber for testing in a hope to reduce the recoil. I have a 1909 Argentine with a 25-06 take off barrel in a plastic stock and a 98 Turk with a heavy 6.5-06 barrel 26" in length in a McMillian heavy target stock.
I never shot cast out of either but did load some starting loads in the 25-06 with the Lyman 112gr round nose. I have a 140gr RCBS sillouette mold coming.
Any info on good loads for either of these would be appreciated.
I will also include the 23" Contender in 223 Rem but will hold velocity down to 2700 to 3000 fps.

[castalott]

Hi Sgt Mike! It was a Ruger 77V but I don't remember the twist. Dale

As I sit here and think, it was a pair of 77Vs with a Weaver T10 on each. Both rifles showed a gray wash at the muzzle indicating to me that I was at the edge of the envelope. Neither rifle was exceptionally accurate except with Sierra 110s wide open and 168 match bullets. But 3 moa will win a silhouette match if you do your part.

We all know the kindergarten basics: Bullet design, quality, uniformity, and size for the bore/throat. Add to that the mechanics of presenting this perfect boolit to the bore the same way each time. Then you have internal ballistics of pressure for the alloy/speed. Add to that external ballistics where the slug flies true after its launched perfectly.

I suspect ( but don't know) the old fashioned way of seating the slug in the barrel with a tool and adding a charged case would produce wonderful results. So many variables removed at one time.


A change in boolit design is also called for. If you have ever seen a sonic picture of a boolit in flight, you know that every lube or crimping groove is a drag on said boolit. It stands to reason that multiple drag areas would produce changing drag as the boolit encounters crosswind and velocity adjustments. There might even be such a thing as RPM changes that change the drag on one or more of the areas.

I don't know ,guys.... I've ordered a few molds that are smooth sided to play with. If they work at low velocity, I'll go on up until they ( or more likely-my methods) fail.

We have new lubes to try and powder coating too. Good Luck to us all.....

Dale