45-70 cast with Ideal loading tool

[rfd]

running balls the primitive way ...

[Chill Wills]

Looking in the original Ideal catalog, the tapered end of the seating die was to be used to flare the case mouth.

Don, That make sense. I always looked at that kind of pointed end designed into the seater and never gave it a thought. The only thing I am scratching my head about is the tool has no provision to do an even partial neck size. So when loading for Lever rifles like my 1892 Winchester this Ideal tool can cast the bullet and can size the bullet by pushing through the sizer in the handle..... which even makes it smaller and then after powdering the case, you can finger seat the bullet ......but it is very loose in the case. Some what too loose for a tubular magazine lever rifle.
Maybe there is more to this. ????

[Don McDowell]

Mike, remember that these tools were designed to be used with blackpowder. As such bullet set back wasn't/isn't a problem in a tube fed levergun. I haven't had anyproblem chambering rounds in either the Colt or the Marlin. The seater seats the bullet into the case far enough that the case mouth is crimped just over the ogive. The catalog says to flare the case mouth to keep from shaving lead when seating, but cases from both of these guns the bullets are a nice slip fit, when sized thru the tool at .401.This tool also seems to size the neck just a touch.
They do caution in the instructions in the catalog, to not use to much powder as it will deform the bullet or possibly damage the case.
One thing I've found very interesting is the old WRA 38wcf cases the primers were crimped into the pocket, just like military brass. So it is necessary to ream/decrimp that primer pocket to keep from wrecking precious primers. So as a matter of procedure I've been reaming the primer pockets on all my 38-40 cases and finding life much simpler.

[Don McDowell]

Heres' the Marlin


And here's what the first 6 rounds loaded using that Ideal tooll and it's bullets did from the rifle at 75 yds offhand.

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;3040384]Mike, remember that these tools were designed to be used with blackpowder. As such bullet set back wasn't/isn't a problem in a tube fed levergun. I haven't had anyproblem chambering rounds in either the Colt or the Marlin. The seater seats the bullet into the case far enough that the case mouth is crimped just over the ogive. The catalog says to flare the case mouth to keep from shaving lead when seating, but cases from both of these guns the bullets are a nice slip fit, when sized thru the tool at .401.This tool also seems to size the neck just a touch./QUOTE]

Hey Don. I had not forgot about the load of BP as that is what I use but you are spot on about the crimp in combo with the BP making it serviceable in a lever rifle. I knew that. but I guess I forgot I knew that. More senior moments.
Thanks all, for helping me learn how these tools were to be used. fun stuff -Michael

[Chill Wills]

Don, we posted at the same time. That is a really nice Marlin 38-40. I would enjoy the set up just as you have it with Colt and loading tool. Very Nice!

[Don McDowell]

Michael, us old guys gots to stick together so's we can keep pointin in the same direction...
I'll try and remember the next time it looks like we'll be at the same place at the same time to drag both those guns along, and couple of boxes of loaded cartridges.
I'm anxious to see what you can make those 45-70 loads do.

I haven't looked at the selection that close, but I wonder if Cornell (Abby's books) might not have some reprints of those early Ideal catalogs? Lot's of good information gleaned out of those books.
Also have to wonder if they didn't start including a decapping accessory after smokeless and boxer primers started to be more of the norm. In that original catalog they did sell a decapping/recapping tool. They also made a special tool for loading the 45 Govt cartridge that instead of the bullet mould on the front of the handles had a sizing tube that resized about 1/2 inch of the case, and you could have the screw out seating die for either the 405 gr, or 500 gr bullet.

[4060MAY]

Don
If you look at the site I posted..I think there is an explanation about the armory tool for the 45-70..also a decapper for berdan primers



I have been shooting a lot of 32-20...model 53 Browning, original low wall I relined and a No.2 RB..also relined
BP shoots to the same point of aim the smokeless load in the SS..the lever is a full case of smokeless..with the bullet touching the powder like BP
I have been trying to get set of dies for the tool I have..marked 32 WCF..I have been using a 30 carbine sizer as a taper crimp die

The 38-40 is one of the treasures I would like to find that is affordable.... yours looks like a find

[Don McDowell]

4060, somewhere around here I have an old Winchester tool for the 32wcf. It doesn't have the mould on the handles tho. Twenty years or so ago I got the hots for a New Frontier in 44 special, and I new a fella that had one new still in the box, turns out he wanted my old worn out 1913 made model p with a 4 3/4 barrel in 32wcf, and we dickered a little for the 1912 made 92 rifle that went with it... I still have all my 32-20 stuff in hopes that someday I get ahold of another set of guns....
I got lucky when I found this Colt, I snagged it off of gun broker for under 1500.. That gun has been on my bucket list for many many years...It is one of the tightest,closest fit and slickest Colt's I have ever been around. It is like the originals tho in that it will shoot dead on at about 75- 100 yds, but you need a deep hold on anything closer.

[4060MAY]

Don
PM me if you want to sell or trade for like stuff
I have a number of 310 tools...complete sets mostly in newer calibers...
Chuck

[Don McDowell]

Chuck I've got a couple of the 310 tools as well, with dies for 38 sp and 300 savage and 6.5, but I have to admit I seldom sell stuff and after I had the remorse over trading that old pair of 32 wcf's , told myself I just don't think I'll get rid of anything. Sort of a packrat I suppose. I carried those 5 boxes of empty 38wcf's for a lustrum or more waiting for a gun to use them in.

[4060MAY]

Don

I completely understand......I still have Indian and Bultaco MC parts do you have any 35 Winchester brass?
picked up a 1895 chambered in it...case is still on the lever..bore is nice..
I know where there is a Marlin in 32wcf may be available...has been relined..not sure of the year, I wasn't interested
I also have 2 S&W in 32wcf....one I got from Ken Mollohan...fun stuff
Chuck

[Don McDowell]

Check with Jamison, they list 35 Winchester brass. It also wouldn't be terribly hard to neck down and fire form 40-70 brass.
http://www.captechintl.com/proddetai...od=35WIN100pcs

[hog]

Very nice ,everytime i run into one of these its either junk or at musem prices, maybe oneday ill get lucky.

[Lead pot]

I have a book called 14 Old Gun Catalogs for the collector By L.D. Satterlee. It's a 1940 print and it covers the time period from 1859 to 1902. It has a lot of good information and loading tools used back then like the Ideal, Marlin, Ballard, Maynard and several others. Rifle and hand gun break down, sights and rifle scopes as well as targets shot.
This book is almost a 1 1/2" thick with a lot of good reading.
And I also just picked up a book last year that is out in the camper on vintage reloading tools and old cartridges. I haven't read it yet just glancing through it and it also has some very good info in it.
There was a old guy that used to set up three tables at a local gun show loaded with old gun and loading manuals.

Kurt

[Fieldmaster]

Hello All
I was talking to a freind about Compatition when it hit me I would like to get back in some shooting compation but this time with my 45-70gov't Shikari in Black Powder so I am investing in a varnie sight for it which ledes me me to the question I am going to use my Lee 340gr. FP mold to make the bullets for te compation what would be a great load of Black Powder for the 340gr. bullet at the long range distance the we will be use for that type of compation please information would greatly be excepted

[rfd]

Hello All
I was talking to a freind about Compatition when it hit me I would like to get back in some shooting compation but this time with my 45-70gov't Shikari in Black Powder so I am investing in a varnie sight for it which ledes me me to the question I am going to use my Lee 340gr. FP mold to make the bullets for te compation what would be a great load of Black Powder for the 340gr. bullet at the long range distance the we will be use for that type of compation please information would greatly be excepted

having used way more than a few H&R rifles for short distance shooting to 200 yards, some things to consider ...

putting a vernier tang peep sight on an H&R s/s break open action means that there *might* be some inconsistency in sighting since the barrel and stock move independently, and may not lock up *precisely* the same, every time, consistently. you may find the smith enterprises barrel ladder peep sight a better alternative. at $165 it will be cheaper than a decent vernier tang, but will not have easily adjustable windage. in any event, the front post sight will need to be replaced with an adjustable aperture globe sight, and better yet if it has an integral spirit level.

you talk of long range competition, but at what distances? a 340 grain .45-70 boolit is not a long range boolit, for the most part. most of us are using a 400+ grain boolit for 200 yards to perhaps 300 yards, and anything beyond that would best be served with 500 grains or more.

the shikari has either a short 24" barrel or a slightly longer 28" one. most long range .45-70's will use a 30" to 34" barrel with a 1:18" twist. you want that fast twist to stabilize 500 grain or heavier boolits. check the barrel length and twist on your shikari.

iirc and fwiw, the shikari frame is not as robust as the latter sb2 frame that's on all current model H&R rifles.

unless the trigger has been worked on, it'll be heavy. i mean like 5# to 7#. the H&R triggers are surfaced hardened only, so filing is out of the question and honing of any kind needs to be carefully done. with the H&R's i had - buffalo classics and ultras - working the trigger/hammer with a bit of graphite helped to make it smoother and a touch lighter. some smiths will do an H&R trigger job, as well. i'd be careful about that.

you will probably be better off with an H&R buffalo classic than the shikari. but even that rifle pales greatly when compared to even the cheap offshore sharps, rolling block and high wall rifles that are far better suited for real long range competition than any H&R rifle.

now, as to what black powder "load" to use - unlike smokeless, there are are no load recipes for black powder. you fill the case with 2f or 1.5f, leave room for the boolit and a wad, compress the powder, seat the boolit, shoot it. there should typically be no air spaces with black powder and it should at least be slightly compressed. just the opposite, for the most part, with regards to smokeless.

good luck with your .45-70 long range shooting.

[Fieldmaster]

having used way more than a few H&R rifles for short distance shooting to 200 yards, some things to consider ...

putting a vernier tang peep sight on an H&R s/s break open action means that there *might* be some inconsistency in sighting since the barrel and stock move independently, and may not lock up *precisely* the same, every time, consistently. you may find the smith enterprises barrel ladder peep sight a better alternative. at $165 it will be cheaper than a decent vernier tang, but will not have easily adjustable windage. in any event, the front post sight will need to be replaced with an adjustable aperture globe sight, and better yet if it has an integral spirit level.

you talk of long range competition, but at what distances? a 340 grain .45-70 boolit is not a long range boolit, for the most part. most of us are using a 400+ grain boolit for 200 yards to perhaps 300 yards, and anything beyond that would best be served with 500 grains or more.

the shikari has either a short 24" barrel or a slightly longer 28" one. most long range .45-70's will use a 30" to 34" barrel with a 1:18" twist. you want that fast twist to stabilize 500 grain or heavier boolits. check the barrel length and twist on your shikari.

iirc and fwiw, the shikari frame is not as robust as the latter sb2 frame that's on all current model H&R rifles.

unless the trigger has been worked on, it'll be heavy. i mean like 5# to 7#. the H&R triggers are surfaced hardened only, so filing is out of the question and honing of any kind needs to be carefully done. with the H&R's i had - buffalo classics and ultras - working the trigger/hammer with a bit of graphite helped to make it smoother and a touch lighter. some smiths will do an H&R trigger job, as well. i'd be careful about that.

you will probably be better off with an H&R buffalo classic than the shikari. but even that rifle pales greatly when compared to even the cheap offshore sharps, rolling block and high wall rifles that are far better suited for real long range competition than any H&R rifle.

now, as to what black powder "load" to use - unlike smokeless, there are are no load recipes for black powder. you fill the case with 2f or 1.5f, leave room for the boolit and a wad, compress the powder, seat the boolit, shoot it. there should typically be no air spaces with black powder and it should at least be slightly compressed. just the opposite, for the most part, with regards to smokeless.

good luck with your .45-70 long range shooting.

Hello boolit man
Thanks for replying back I have several other Shikari with vernier
Sights on t GBO forum mine does have the 28" Bbl. 1-20 twist and I plan on using Pyrodex Select because that is all I have available to me being I am very new to BP cartridges shooting (I mostly shot .308win high power rifle comp ) is the wad needed why not just
Fill the case up to the point where it touches the bottom of the bullet

[Fieldmaster]

Also what is wrong with the Lee 340gr.bullet that too is all that I have available to me it worked when I used them in my
H&R Buffalo Classic that use to have loaded to 2100fps

[rfd]

Also what is wrong with the Lee 340gr.bullet that too is all that I have available to me it worked when I used them in my
H&R Buffalo Classic that use to have loaded to 2100fps

you have a pm - i don't wanna hijack this thread any more than i already have.