Miroku 1873 Winchester .357

[T-Bird]

Ok, Mon. I got off my wallet and placed one of these on order. The lgs guy said it may "take a while to get it"- like several months- anyway, I am still trying to prepare for my new arrival. At present, my only .357 is a S+W 686 that I shoot Ly 358429 out of. I load it over 8gr AA#5 and get good accuracy and 1100ish fps. I am not a devoted .357 shooter, I shoot much more 45 Colt , 35 Rem, 45/70, etc. so I just kinda got one mold, one load and I was good for .357. Well when this gun arrives, I will probably shoot much more .357. I load this boolet in the crimping groove for an OAL longer that SAAMI specs for my pistol but question #1 is, does anyone have one of these guns, and will this boolet at this OAL feed? question #2 is: Are these guns still considered "weak" designs that can barely be expected to carry but a few factory spec "magnum" loads a year, with the rest being CAS level loads, or are they bona fide .357 rifles that you can shoot like any other? Reading "on the net" I have read both. I am in the latter camp- I believe Miroku steel is as good as it gets and these guns can be used like any other .357 rifle. I think that CAS which is supposedly what these guns were marketed for, places alot more stress on the toggle-link design than it was ever designed for in 1873. Surely, non CAS shooting with .357 mag loads at "normal " shooting levels won't shoot them loose. Any input appreciated. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[missionary5155]

Greetings Tbird
This debate has bounced about a good while. The only way to find out for sre is wait 10 years for the hard evidence to unravel.
But if you were to buy two and shoot 125 grainers only in one and 200 grainers in the other I would think that 200 grainer rifle toggle systen will not hold tolerences and head space will increase.
I have a two year old repro 1876 in 50-95. I took it apart and compared pieces to my origonal 1876. Not hardly any difference. Sure the steel is probably stronger but the system is still a toggle. Probably will last all my life with case fulls of 3F. But that is about all I will ever feed it.
I have a 32 WCF 1873 from 1887. No idea what it was fed before I got 20 plus years ago. But since I only feed it light loads of Unique or 3F. Head space is a bit loose but not bad.
So if you shoot all 357 mag velocity it will depend on how heavy the boolits are and what powder you use. Slow powders are a bit more gentle. Max loads of Red Dot will really pop on those toggles. But you will be the first to know when the new toggles begin to give.
Mike in Peru

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I think one of the main concerns with 73's whether they are original or modern repros is not so much the strength of the steel, but the strength of the action. In the originals the links/linkage/toggles was not considered to be very sturdy/strong and if overloaded in any way..that was where something would let go or at least start to. Advice from Missionary 5155 is very good....use the slowest practical powder, don't use heavier than needed bullets and keep the pressure down on the toggles ...and the rest of the gun. It will last longer. LLS

[T-Bird]

my experience with slower powders is that, given the same boolet and velocity as a faster powder, cases thusly loaded produce more felt recoil due to the larger powder volime burned. Shouldn't this produce MORE casehead thrust? where am I wrong? T-Bird

[LtFrankDrebbin]

I may be corrected on this one,,, but the slower burn powder should be a more progressive push to the boolit as well as the other side being the working parts.
Not the fast jolt that you would get from the fast burners.

I sort of picture it as the golfer striking the ball (fast powder) vs hockey player more pushing ball/ puck (slow powder). Same peak pressure to achieve a given velocity just one reaches peak a lot faster therefore more aggressive.

[Dan Cash]

If you load .357 cases with 3fg black powder and your bullet of choice, the rifle will out live you. If you have to shoot .357 magnum loads of smokeless, you will be trading guns before long. For what it is worth, heavy loads with light weight bullets are a lot more stressful on a revolver than heavy loads with heavy bullets.

[Bob Busetti]

I don't know about the strength 1873 in .357. However Accurate powder claims the new made 1876 is stronger than people think they are. They show loads that are limited to 25,000 with there powders. So I guess until someone does a scientific test on the new actions we will never know how strong these actions are. Of course Remington got away with smokeless powder in its rolling blocks by having a generous free bore in the barrel. Just saying.
Bob

[T-Bird]

That last sentence doesn't make sense to me Dan

If you load .357 cases with 3fg black powder and your bullet of choice, the rifle will out live you. If you have to shoot .357 magnum loads of smokeless, you will be trading guns before long. For what it is worth, heavy loads with light weight bullets are a lot more stressful on a revolver than heavy loads with heavy bullets.

[T-Bird]

Gun manufacturers typically claim that they don't support using handloads in their guns. It doesn't make sense that a company would make a gun that you weren't supposed to shoot factory ammo in. Shoot Straight T-Bird

[T-Bird]

FWIW I called Winchester, spoke with "Matt". I told him that I was considering the purchase of an 1873 in .357 but that I felt like their target market was CAS shooters and I am not one. I told him that I would be using the gun for hunting and shooting and likely would be using factory (I lied a little) 158 gr .357 ammo routinely was the action strong enough to stand up to that? He said "you will be fine. " I know that is what you would expect him to say, but he had a chance to say that it was primarily meant for reduced loads, and he didn't. Guess the proof is in the puddin'. As for the OAL part of my query (which is I think 1.660), anyone know? Shoot straight,T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Got it finally fri! Shoots well (I think) with Lee 158 RNFP over 8gr AA#5. I really can't see the sight well, I have got a Marble tang sight on order. I hit a beverage can at 60 yds about 1/2 the time. Misses were close. No leading with ACWW+ 2%.Also, the owners manual says to only shoot factory loaded ammo in it -no surprise. The above load is below that level. I will probably shoot 5-10 full power loads in it a year to hunt with. Fit and finish on this rifle is superb.To say I tickled is an understatement. Shoot Straight T-Bird.

[TXGunNut]

Wow, glad you finally got it. I would have probably had the tang sight on there before the initial range trip but have found I can use a few of the variations of buckhorn sights. Any chance of a few pics? Any feeding issues?

[Plastikosmd]

Gratz. I haven't worked much up in mine to date. It does well with factory stuff. U need to post a pic!

[T-Bird]

I started to order the tang sight a long time ago, but the way the lgs guy sounded," those guns are hard to get" I wasn't sure it would EVER come. He actually ordered it from Winchester, but wound up buying from a salesman or something- he told me but I wasn't listening, I was eyeing the gun.I have a rule, the day I buy a gun, it gets shot before dark- hence the trip to the range with no tang sight. I don't know how to post pics. Shoot straight T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Lee 158rnfp feeds like butter. Ly358429 will not feed crimped in the crimp groove. 358429 feeds but sometimes the nose hangs up on the chamber edge when crimped level with the front edge of the front driving band. I still can't comment on accuracy- no tang sight yet. Hasn't stopped me from shooting it tho! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[paul h]

my experience with slower powders is that, given the same boolet and velocity as a faster powder, cases thusly loaded produce more felt recoil due to the larger powder volime burned. Shouldn't this produce MORE casehead thrust? where am I wrong? T-Bird

The casehead thrust is based on the peak pressure generated by the powder charge. You can get the same peak pressure with a fast, medium and slow powder and will have different bullet velocities and recoils for all three loads but the bolt will experience the same peak thrust.

[T-Bird]

thank's Paul. that means that these lil-gun 357 loads that are such high velocity but low pressure, are actually easier on the gun than the midrange Unique type loads that are saami standard 357mag pressures? It's hard for me to believe that I have bought a 357 mag rifle that I can't shoot 357mag in! I get the design deal, but double barrel shotguns haven't changed designs significantly in the last 125 yrs and todays shells are able to be 3x black powder pressure levels simply because of advancements in metalurgy.I think the same applys here- maybe I'm wrong. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Tang sight came in today. shoots better than I can see at 60 yds with 7.5 gr AA#5 and About the same with 8gr #5. about 21/2 in at that range. Will try some "hunting loads" when holidays over. Y'all don't eat too much! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[Greg in Malad]

T-Bird,
Congratulations on your new rifle, it was worth the wait.
I lucked out and found one at Sportsmans Warehouse last fall, it is by far the most enjoyable rifle I own. The rear sight never tripped my hammer and I don’t care for tang sights so I installed a Skinner barrel mount peep, it’s a bit too far forward but much better than a buckhorn.
My rifles accuracy is about 1.5” to 2.5” at 50 yds with every load I’ve tried which is adequate for plinking and small game. Don’t worry about wearing out the toggle links. Look at it this way, if you shoot enough mid-range loads to wear them out you have shot more ammo in one rifle than most people will fire in their entire life.
If I can remember how, I’ll post some photos of my rifle in action.

[T-Bird]

Nice work Greg! Beautiful gun.