45/70 Cartridge - can you give me a quick education?

[bedbugbilly]

I used to shoot BP - round ball and rifled musket. I then got interested in reloading and vintage cartridge handguns. I had sold my long gun collection since we are traveling between MI and AZ. I mainly load 38 Spl. Those things said, I just picked up a 357 Handi-Rifle single shot that I know is going to be a lot of fun to load and shoot - smokeless and BP both.

A little while ago, I bought a box of Lyman molds and in it was a Lyman 457124 - 366 grain mold. Like a holster without a pistol - this mold is "crying out to me" and I'm getting the itch to slowly gather 45/70 reloading dies, brass and rifle. I'm thinking single shot - I passed up a good used H & R "Buffalo Classic" that I should have snatched up but I'll keep my eyes open. So . . . .

I have a few questions fro those experienced in loading/shooting 45/70 and hope I can get some information beyond some of the things I've been reading.

I'm not interested in loading "max" loads but would rather do lighter loads. I'm 62 and I don't want to abuse the shoulder to cause a problem.

When loading 45/70 - how many re-loads of the brass can you expect before you start having problems with neck splits, etc? (I know it depends on chamber, heavy loads, etc.).

In my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 - looking under some of the loading data I see that many of the loads recommend having a dacron filler patch used. If you are loading lighter loads - say Unique or similar - is it necessary due to case volume and keeping the powder somewhat consolidated for good ignition?

If you load 45/70 with Black Powder - use a drop tube and compress - I know that 70 gr. is going to be max. (for sake of discussion). If you wanted to utilize lighter loads of BP with the 457124 366 grain boolit (I'm only interested in loading cast) - what would be the approximate minimum load to give decent accuracy at say 50 or 100 yards? i.e. - get the bullet out of the barrel and flying straight. If you load "reduced" BP loads, what is normally used as a "filler" on top of the BP to give a good compressed load? Corn Meal or something better?

To be honest, it's been close to 50 years since I've shot a 45/70 - I was a kid and I remember my shoulder was sore for a few days (out of a Winchester if I remember correctly). I'd like to play with a 45/70 just because of the history of the cartridge but if it is going to be a "shoulder abuser" - I may rethink it? (yea, I know . . "wuss"). LOL

I have a feeling that I might end up with a H & R Buffalo Classic since it would probably be the least expensive rifle to get to play with but it all depends on what I run across.

Another question - on the Springfield trapdoors - the 45/70 was used in the rifles. Am I remembering correctly that the 1873 Carbines utilized a lighter charge than the rifle's 70 grains? If so - how were these loaded? A filler to reduce the load?

Thanks for any help, advice, encouragement or other - greatly appreciate it!

[jrmartin1964]

I can't help you with reduced BP charges in the .45/70, but I can answer one of your other questions. Cartridges for the 1873 carbines were loaded with 55 grains of powder and the same 305 grain bullet as the rifle, with sufficient wads used between powder and bullet so that the overall cartridge length was the same as that for the rifle and its 70 grain charge. Cartridges were headstamped with a "C" for carbines and "R" for rifles. When the 500 grain bullet was adopted for the rifles (early 1880s), it was decided to eliminate the wads from carbine cartridges and the bullet was seated directly on the powder, resulting in a much shorter OAL for the carbine. At that time the identifying "R" and "C" headstamps were eliminated.

Jim

[aspangler]

Try 25 gr of 2400 behind your boolit. Recoil is like a light field load on a 20 ga. The old carbine load was 55 gr 2f under 405 grain lead boolit. It still kicks like a mule. Ask me how I know. LOL

[EDG]

1. How many reloads?
Take care of the cases. Don't allow black powder to corrode them. Don't over load. Anneal about every 5 to 8 reloadings.
They should last 30 to 40 loading before the primer pockets get a little loose from seating so many primers. After that many loadings you might find a larger batch of primers and load them another 10 times.

The only cases I have lost were body splits due to an older FL sizer than sized the middle of the case too much. Those were cases I bought in 1972. The dies I think were made in 1970.

2. I never use fillers. I tilt the muzzle up before firing Unique loads. I also use SR4759 which is very bulky and takes up a lot of space in the case. I tilt the muzzle up on these loads too.


3. I think original 45-70 reduced loads used a rolled paper tube to take up space in the case.
The tubes looked something like this but were about 1.5 inches long.

Attachment 114253

[M-Tecs]

EDG I didn't know about the rolled paper tube to take up space. Thanks for the info.

[Larry Gibson]

bedbugbilly

Where in Arizona?

The 457124 will cast out closer to 390+ gr with a 30-1 or 20-1 alloy, maybe even 400 gr depending on the mould. I shoot a lot of them in my own 45-70s. To answer the questions;

If you minimally partial resize or neck size (recommended) case life is excellent. I quit tracking times fired a long time ago.

I don't use a Dacron filler (different from the wad Lyman used to suggest) with the faster burning powders like Unique. I do use the Dacron filler with AA5744, SR4759, H4198 and 4895 loads.

Contrary to popular opinion there is no need for the drop tube with BP in 45-70 loads, especially the less than 70 gr loads you are talking. A compression die may or may not be needed. A BP load duplicating the 45-55 Carbine load with a 30-1 cast 457124 would probably be just what you're looking for and no filler will be needed.

We could have a "cast-a-thon and then a shoot-a-thon if you're in my neck of the woods.....er cactus I mean.........

Larry Gibson

[Catshooter]

I use two loads primarily.

A 365 grain boolit over fifteen grains of Universal Clays and from ten to fifteen with a 500 grainer. Both are very accurate out of my Handi rifle. The lighter boolit of course recoils less but they are both light. As in less than the 30-30 from a Handi light. You can always go lighter. I've had my twelve year old grandson shoot these and he loves the 365. The 500 is a bit too much yet for him.

I don't use fillers.


Cat

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you all for the great information! I can see that the 45/70 is a "project" I need to proceed on! I'll start accumulating the necessary brass, dies, etc. and keep my eyes open for a single shot rifle!

Larry - Sahuarita - between Tucson and Green Valley. Normally we are out there from about Oct. to April. We have one parent left - my mother-in-law who will be 93 in Sept. We had to move her into assisted living a couple of years ago and she is slowly going downhill. I have a feeling that we may not even make it to AZ this winter but as my wife and I know and say, AZ will always be there but her mother won't be. Right now, she is our priority and that's the important thing above anything else.

I will say though - that my thoughts often wanner to AZ - we love it there and even though it an be warm, you sure can't beat the sunshine!

Thank you all again for the information - I wasn't sure just how long the brass would last but I figured it should be good for a number of reloadings if taken care of. I'll try and pick up enough so that I can segregate the casings used for smokeless and for BP. In my 38s, I use nickel for BP as it seems to clean up better. I deprive as soon as I get home and toss it in hot, soapy water then scrub and rinse well. I've let the cleaned casings set for a few weeks just to see if there was any problem and they always remain as clean as can be. I appreciate the information on reduced loads - I can see that this cartridge affords a lot of "playing time". Many thanks!

[wellfedirishman]

You might consider a real trapdoor rifle or carbine if you want to shoot an original 45/70.

I shoot trapdoors with Trailboss loads and they shoot very well and are accurate too with light recoil. Very easy on cases also.

Danish rolling blocks converted to 45/70 are great too and you can get sporterized ones for about the same price as a Buffalo Classic.

If you watch Gunbroker regularly you can find the occasional bargain in antique guns.

Good luck either way.

Thank you all for the great information! I can see that the 45/70 is a "project" I need to proceed on! I'll start accumulating the necessary brass, dies, etc. and keep my eyes open for a single shot rifle!

Larry - Sahuarita - between Tucson and Green Valley. Normally we are out there from about Oct. to April. We have one parent left - my mother-in-law who will be 93 in Sept. We had to move her into assisted living a couple of years ago and she is slowly going downhill. I have a feeling that we may not even make it to AZ this winter but as my wife and I know and say, AZ will always be there but her mother won't be. Right now, she is our priority and that's the important thing above anything else.

I will say though - that my thoughts often wanner to AZ - we love it there and even though it an be warm, you sure can't beat the sunshine!

Thank you all again for the information - I wasn't sure just how long the brass would last but I figured it should be good for a number of reloadings if taken care of. I'll try and pick up enough so that I can segregate the casings used for smokeless and for BP. In my 38s, I use nickel for BP as it seems to clean up better. I deprive as soon as I get home and toss it in hot, soapy water then scrub and rinse well. I've let the cleaned casings set for a few weeks just to see if there was any problem and they always remain as clean as can be. I appreciate the information on reduced loads - I can see that this cartridge affords a lot of "playing time". Many thanks!

[Larry Gibson]

bedbugbilly

Give me a shout when you get down to AZ, maybe we can arrange something. Its 3 hours or so to Phoenix and there are lots of places in between.

Larry Gibson

[jrmartin1964]

3. I think original 45-70 reduced loads used a rolled paper tube to take up space in the case.
The tubes looked something like this but were about 1.5 inches long.

Attachment 114253

As it turns out, either stacked pasteboard wads or rolled tubes were used in the carbine cartridges, depending upon the arsenal loading them.

[rfd]

i shoot .45-70 out of an H&R buff classic. i did add 1# mercury tube into the butt stock to help with recoil, along with a doubled kick killer lace-on butt pad - these things really help tame the aa5744 recoil and 535 grain boolits (though the recoil with trail boss is quite light). no black (i might mess with that krap next year, though - it has such an alluring aroma and olde tyme style ), only smokeless using aa5744 and trail boss with 405 and 535 grain lead from various boolits makers like penn, lazer, badman and the best is montana bullet works. i'll be casting my own this winter. i punch .030" veggie or tag board wads for under the boolits. i pretty much fill the case with trail boss (it shouldn't be compressed) and that means 14 to 16 grains depending on the boolit i'm using. i use no fillers with aa5744 and loads of 23 to 27 grains depending on boolit weight. trail boss burns very clean while aa5744 will leave some grains in the barrel after firing, but none of that has been an issue with accuracy for me. i neck size brass only, expand just enuf to allow the lead to seat well and seat with no added crimp. brass lasts a looooooong time, in fact i'm still using the same 100 brass cases after over 15 firings each with no neck annealing.

the buff classic is a fine s/s rifle with two sore points, one easily remedied. the williams sight that comes with it won't work for 200 yards or longer, and i replaced it with a smith ladder peep - not cheap at $170, but required for long distance. i didn't go the tang vernier sight way because unlike most s/s rifles the buff is a break open and that could mean consistency issues, whereas the smith sits right on the barrel. the other issue is the trigger's hefty 5.5# pull. i really need to lighten it up but H&R will no longer do trigger jobs, and most gunsmiths won't on this rifle either, though there are at least two different diy H&R trigger job lightening processes out there, but this is something i don't wanna mess with myself so ... help, anybody!?

[No_1]

I'm not interested in loading "max" loads but would rather do lighter loads. I'm 62 and I don't want to abuse the shoulder to cause a problem.

In my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 - looking under some of the loading data I see that many of the loads recommend having a dacron filler patch used. If you are loading lighter loads - say Unique or similar - is it necessary due to case volume and keeping the powder somewhat consolidated for good ignition?

To be honest, it's been close to 50 years since I've shot a 45/70 - I was a kid and I remember my shoulder was sore for a few days (out of a Winchester if I remember correctly). I'd like to play with a 45/70 just because of the history of the cartridge but if it is going to be a "shoulder abuser" - I may rethink it? (yea, I know . . "wuss"). LOL

45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges except for the amount of lead that heads down range with every pull of the trigger. There are a bunh of good threads on loading of this fine old cartridge. The first ---> Here <--- talks to standard and heavy loads then the second page ---> Here <--- talks to light loadings of many cartridges including the 45-70 using Unique. I use unique in loads provided to my father who is now in his mid-70's. I DON'T use fillers and have had no issues. The loads using unique are accurate, clean and easy on the cases. As far case life, I use redding dies which seem to only size the area of the case that holds the boolit.

[1Shirt]

Off the top of the head, and unless you are a die hard individual I would stay away from black powder. It is messy, hard on brass, and time consuming. Recommend you get a copy of the latest lyman Cast blt manual. Start with min loads for Trapdoor and work up. It is fun that way, cheaper also. A lot of different cast blts work well, but recommend the lighter ones to start with, due to less recoil, and expense.
1Shirt!

[doc1876]

NO..NO...NO! throw it away, run while you still have the chance, you cannot afford this much fun!

[montana_charlie]

Off the top of the head, and unless you are a die hard individual I would stay away from black powder. It is messy, hard on brass, and time consuming.

Some will disagree with this opinion.
To pick an issue to take issue with ... I choose "hard on brass".

I have two 'sets' of 15 matched cases that I use exclusively for load development.
I put a given load in one set, then go fire them. I load up the other set, fire them, then clean all thirty cases so I can start over.

I don't resize the cases at all, and my bullets are a snug slip-fit in the fireformed mouth.
I use one die to deprime (but not resize) and one die to compress powder.
Add a scale to weigh charges and that's all the equipment necessary to turn out loads that will stay under 2 MOA out to 300 yards (at least) with iron sights.

2014 hasn't ended yet, so I haven't totaled up the times those thirty cases have been fired this year.
But, as of the end of 2013, 951 rounds had been fired from those thirty cases ... and I am still using them this year.

Maybe somebody else would like to address the "messy" issue ...

CM

[Goatwhiskers]

rfd, the trigger should not scare you. First off, if you check the FAQ in the Handi section of the Graybeard site, there is tons of info explaining every facet. I will enphasize that if you try it you will need a slave pin for reassembly, then it's easy. I had two whose pull weight was over 5#, I reduced one to 3#, the other to 3.25# by disassembling and putting a tiny dab of some gunslick grease--contains graphite?--to the sear section of the trigger. No polishing or stoning. I have also read that you can remove the stock on an SB-2 action and reach in thru the rear and put a tiny drop of lube on the sear area that way, haven't tried it. That's what I like about Handis, they are so simple and reliable. GW

[Good Cheer]

bedbugbilly,
Just another way to scratch the itch...
I used to shoot an army issue 45-70 dated 1889. Now I use the 457124 and others in a Thompson Center New Englander refitted to .458" bore diameter, using however much powder is needed.

[Texantothecore]

Fillers:

Cream of wheat
Cream of rice
Cornmeal
Grits
Ground up corncob
Ground up rice
Ground up walnut husks
Upholstery filler
Ground up packing peanuts
Cotton balls

The upholstery filler is best for modern powders, the others for black powder.

The list is endless.

[Texantothecore]

I frequently use rb with my black powder loads for knocking cans around. 15 grns, 24 grns, 40 grns are all good. I use cream of wheat for filler and it works fine, cleaning the barrel.

Look down your barrel after every shot to make sure the rb went down range.

70 grns with rb is quite amazing. I frequently shoot it at 300 yards and it kicks up a bucket full of dirt from the
berm.