Seriously considering making ammunition for sale

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are getting all of your Local Police Range's brass,, why not sell the reloaded ammo back to them?

That way you'd only have one customer to please.

Also if you are setting up for pistol rounds then you need to include .40 S&W from the start. Most police are using that round nowadays.

Also please realize that none of us are saying you can't do this,, we are saying you shouldn't do this. For all of the above reasons. I will include some reality about money versus time spent to follow.

I have ran a production machine shop for the last 30 years.

I have probably pulled handles on machines a million plus times.

How many rounds of ammo have you loaded in your life? a million? It is the exact same type of work.

In order to do meaningful production you must keep the machine running at all costs. Every minute you are not pulling the handle is a minute of production you have lost, and you can't get it back. The only way to multiply production is with more machines and more people to run them or Automate.

Everytime you have to make an adjustment to a set up, fill the Powder, Primers, Boolits, change overs to different calibers, you lose time and production. and ultimately $.

If you are looking at selling a gun shows you will have to show up with sufficient product to not run out during the first 4 hours of the show. The outfits I see at CA guns shows are showing up with 1,000's and thousands of each popular caliber . There are lines a mile long around their tables. They don't run out until late Sunday afternoon and bring their product in Semi Trailers! Oh, and you have to sell for less than they do, or people will just stand in line.

On your 650 you should be able to produce 500 rounds an hour average under Ideal Circumstances. Except you are making boolits too, so cut that in half. That's 2,000 rounds per 8 hour day under Ideal Circumstances.

Do you have people that can help you run the machine? It has to keep running for you to make quota.

Ideal Circumstances DO NOT Exist! There is always something to stop the machine,,,and if you are my age you will be doing good to stand in front of that machine for 30 min at a time. I personally load in 15 minute or 100 round volleys and take a break between rounds. But I am only supporting my shooting habit.

This all comes down to the Realistic amount of product per hour you can produce.

It is all about the numbers, because rounds per hour less overhead equals $ per hour. At say $25 for 100 9mm's x 20 = 2000 rounds per day, or $500 per day less components and Whatever your time is worth and overhead (electricity, a place to do it, and all the in sundry things that contribute to the cost of producing that product or go into doing anything as a business.) or a hobby, since nothing is free.

IN order to keep any business afloat, IE: just above break even,,, you MUST sell product at 110-120% above the all inclusive cost to produce the product.

If you can't produce and sell at or above these numbers you will fail... Period!!!

Been there, done that. It doesn't matter how low your expectations are, they will not be met below that level.

You say you just want to support your shooting habit, and this is fine.

But how much are you really willing to work to support that habit? Because if this businesses only reward is supporting your shooting habit then you probably won't be shootin' very much.

What you are proposing is a lot of work for little reward, and I will submit that you aren't going to have time for your shooting hobby.

My whole point of spending an hour to write this post is to make you aware that there is ALOT more to this than meets the eye, and when you have a good realistic look at the whole picture you will probably agree with me. Also the Liability issues, whereas very real, are the least of your worries. Making the numbers work are the real test,,, and they are the reason why the rest of us don't do it!

Randy

[TES]

Do not forget inspection times, counting, packaging as well as final cleaning to get all the bullets you made nice and shiny again. This takes twice as long as the actual manufacturing does. I spend 2/3 of my time with the finishing aspect to make sure my ammo is as good as it can get.

[KohlerK91]

I think you guys are all missing what the OP is saying.

HE IS RETIRED!!!!!

Sounds to me he is looking for something to do. Not trying to compete with 11 Dillon 1050's in a row or some guy with a room full of Camdex machines making 1,000,000 rounds a month.

When you load your first box of ammo for sale, let me know I will buy it from you.

[TES]

Kohler...the OP seems to think it is ok to make bullets and relaod ammo on a small scale. What we are trying to explain/ help with is that if he makes 1 cast bullet and sells it he is going to pay out of pocket around 4k. Then everything after that is profit. Small scale does not work.

[Safeshot]

Selling cast bullets, especially the HP's, does sound like a good start. You might even make them in the sizes that most bullet casters that use their own cast bullets, want to use, (larger than most standard commercial cast bullets). You might consider offering larger "two diameter" expanding plugs with a well designed flare as well.

[denul]

AbitNutz-

I just spent 2 hours casting up 20 pounds of NOE's 190 gr HP bullets from his excellent 4 cavity RG mold, and I could not get this thread out of my mind. I could not have cast with any of these (or Mihec's)multicavity HP molds had they not taken the risk to fill a perceived need for group buys several years back. We are all the better for it. I believe that NOE stands for "Night Owl Enterprises" - an apt description of what most enterpreneurs willingly accept and endure to succeed.

You have submitted a business plan to this website for review, and gotten far more negative than positive responses.

I believe that John Browning and his brothers would have received similar responses to their idea of a new rifle, given the dominance of Winchester and Remington of that market in the 1880's. Imagine the mad audacity of Bill Ruger and Alexander Sturm trying to sell a new .22 pistol with Colt,Smith and Wesson, and others, already covering that market, in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

Like most of my generation, I was raised to believe that you never try to get ahead because you might fail. When a childhood friend sold everthing to begin an ice cream enterprise, the entire community was down about him throwing away a good job, for something that already been done by others, and wondering how his wife felt that he would gamble it all against all the health department regulations, and the lawsuits when someone got sick eating his product and so on. When a few years later it was a multimillion dollar business, employing more than a few of those doubters - well,then they ALL had known he could do it all along.

Most people fear an unknown future and possible failure, more than they trust a known present and possible success; hence enterpreneurs will always be that minority which pleasantly improves, disproves, and surprises,the majority.

You plan has a far greater chance of success than my friend's, because you have precisely identified your niche market - people who want cast HP ammunition but don't want to reload it. I don't know or care why most of my cast ammo is HP. I don't hunt, don't carry these for self defense, and don't compete in matches.I don't have to have a reason to like cast HP, I just do. I am confident that there are others who would neither cast nor reload cast hollow point ammunition, but would love to shoot it.

You do not propose to compete against the million round a day businesses, and they don't propose to start casting HP's for sale, loaded or otherwise. They are no more your competition than Buick.

You are not competing against the small scale reloaders, because you intend to sell a more attractively packaged product. You are only competing against yourself, testing whether or not your idea, that this product will sell for a profit, is viable. It may or may not be viable, but you do not propose to make an unrealistic windfall and are well aware of the risks involved and the necessary steps to minimize those risks.

In a larger sense, can you imagine a better country in which to pursue your dream? Oh yes, they could ban guns, ammo and components,at any time. They could sign all of our rights over to the UN. Overzealous agents from any of a dozen regulatory bodies, could close you down, and spirit you away in the middle of the night. Hoarding is rampant, supplies are tight and may remain so. But in this country,and in this century, we have more people than ever involved with and intererested in firearms, with more states than ever allowing concealed carry, and with tyrant city states, like Chicago, San Francisco, New York, and Washington,DC facing a federal mandate to support, on some terms,the second amendment.It was not always so.

This transition occurred because people did what they were told could never be done. People like you.

I believe that the efforts of you and those like you, are every bit as crucial to our second amendment rights as a comparable contribution to the NRA, because your efforts ease more people into the shooting tent, and exclude no one; the NRA cannot do its important work without volume.

Take another example from this excellent forum. Powder coating has taken off, gathering a lot of enthusiastic users in a short period of time. I now see coated bullets listed for sale, without the bother of preparing them, in the Dillon flyer. I'm not one of the enthusiasts. Some of them may not share my enthusiasm for cast HPs.But I'm very glad they are here and growing - because we need each other.

Those who have here discouraged your proposal, are sincere, and mean you well, but their criticisms can still serve you, as either precautions to take or challenges to overcome.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, you have the support of your capable family and are not compelled to do this for financial reasons; you can do as much or as little of this as you like without the fear that it will become drudgery to you.

To paraphrase Henry Ford,if you try, you cannot fail. If you do not, you can only fail. This business proposal may or may not succeed,but either way, you will successfully answer the question you first posed about its viability under your management. That question can
be answered in no other way, and by no other person.

By the way, I don't buy any reloads, and very little factory ammo,but I'd like that second box you sell. I would have grabbed the first one, but I was busy casting while KohlerK91 was posting, so I lost out.

[Bullwolf]

Packaging is going to be a problem. You wouldn't believe what a plain old box costs.

I worked as a re-loader for a small company located inside an indoor range, back before the Clinton era.

For packaging we managed to source (in bulk) those black plastic inserts that sometimes came inside factory cardboard ammunition boxes.



We would fill them up (caliber specific) and then shrink wrap em.

After the plastic cooled, an adhesive label with our company logo and information was applied on the outside of the shrink wrap and it was loaded onto a wooden pallet.

We sold our reloads to customers shooting at the range, and shipped to a few other indoor ranges. We also sold reloads at the gun shows. Our reloads were made from a small portion of the range brass we picked up from the indoor range, the majority of the range brass that we did not use got sold for scrap.

We mostly loaded on a few of the big Dillon machines with case feeders, older RL1000's. I think the new Dillon model is the Super 1050 now. We also had an old Ammo Load Machine that was rarely used.



I worked at that range for quite a long time, up until the point where the owner sold the range, along with the reloading business. Since I was the only experienced re-loader they had ever hired, I pretty much got to run the Dillon's full time.

Not sure if the packaging information is still relevant, but it worked at the time for us.



- Bullwolf

[AbitNutz]

I'm talking to the State Department about ITAR. Apparently they do make exceptions on a case by case basis. All I have to do is convince them....

That sounds exactly like the kind of info I needed on packaging.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Denul: if 99 people told you that jumping off a cliff would kill you ?

We are only trying to reveal the true nature of the business. A lot of people are focusing on the Legal aspects of it, I am focusing on the economic aspects of it.

It is a financial loser and the reason why is the profit margin is too narrow to survive at low volume. You are competing against established hi volume producers whether you choose to be a low volume producer or not, and as such you are subject to the same profit margins as they dictate. As a home business you must make at least $40 and hour to survive, and that is just barely. This is true whether you consider it to be a Hobby, or not. It still costs money either way.

It seems that Abitnutz is going to pursue this anyway and I wish him well, but if all he needs to do is fill up time then there are a thousand other ways to do it that won't burn him out on the sport/hobby he already loves.

Even sex gets old if you're doing it 1000 times a day,,, everyday.

Randy

[jmorris]

I think you guys are all missing what the OP is saying.

HE IS RETIRED!!!!!

Sounds to me he is looking for something to do.

That is what I took out of it and why I quit posting.


Kind of like a lemonade stand for adults. Not going to put food on the table but you can have fun and make something, until you get tired of it.


If it were just about money, he would be better off selling lead and Linotype from his endless supply. All money in and only work he would have to do is ship it.

[unclebill]

i would buy your hollow point boolits.

[marvelshooter]

I have been watching this thread for a while and those of you who agree it is not all about the money are right. Ask this guy: http://qmmo.net/reloads_price.php why he still works a full time day job. Ask him him how much money he nets selling 100 .223 reloads for $35.00. If the OP wants to do it to keep busy and make a little slush money have at it. And keep us posted how it goes. It's better reading than some of the stuff that comes through this forum.

[AbitNutz]

The basic numbers pan out based on my, possibly unique, situation. If it comes down to filing a blizzard of paperwork, I'm ok there too. Paying $30 for an FFL to manufacture is certainly do-able but if I have to pay $2,250 to cover an ITAR fee...well, that may be a deal killer. However, there is hope. I just talked to the Directorate of Trade Controls at the Department of State (good god!) and they do make exceptions.

The entire situation is really nebulous, which is good and bad. Ask the right person and get help. Ask the wrong person and do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.

I really have nothing to lose. I'll pursue this till it stops making sense.

[Weaponologist]

Good For you AbitNutz, Don't stop pushing.. I've had several businesses before I was disabled. But that's a story for another time.If this happens I won't get a chance to see or use your product less you come to a Gun Show or 2 in North Carolina. However if you should ever make more HP 45acp or 357 than you need for your product please send me a Qt and price list.

[bigblockbill]

AbitNutz I fully support you and your idea. Don't let the naysayers get you down. My father just retired and bought some rent houses to keep him busy (wish he would have gotten into the reloading business). Denul is right the current situation of the second amendment needs people like you, and America needs people like you. America needs people that are willing to take a risk and open a business. I understand you are only doing this for your entertainment and if you can afford it go for it. Since I got to this post to late Ill take box #3. 357 Mag, I'm serious, save my info and let me know if you get up and running. If its loaded hot i'll take 2 boxes. We as a hobby need to support our own don't tare them down.

[Adam10mm]

Im a small commercial reloader. PM me and I will give you some advice and clear up some things.

[MaryB]

I buy boxes and trays from these guys for my reloads. http://www.topbrass-inc.com/reloadin...category_id=56

[Handloader109]

If you can source Powder and Primers, and you are casting the bullets and you have the casings, then I say go for it. you have the right idea, start with only a couple of calibers and make HPs. I wouldn't classify them as a +P or anything like that, just HPs. you can get somewhat of a premium over cheap rn. Heck, some of the factory HPs are a dollar a round.

[brassrat]

I have lots of ammo, lets see the salespeople.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If it were just about money, he would be better off selling lead and Linotype from his endless supply. All money in and only work he would have to do is ship it.

Abitnutz: This is the best idea I have heard here yet!

You might have a look at this proposal as it is all win and no loss.

Also you wouldn't subject yourself to "loading burn out" which you will see quickly otherwise.

If you sold on Ebay and other places you could easily fill your days with selling linotype and save your actual loading of ammo for your own use.

Randy