Lever action rifles in 357 mag or 30-30w

[Lonegun1894]

I have .357 Rossi 92s, a .357 Winchester 94, and .30-30 Winchester 94s, and .30-30 Marlin 336s. They are all great, and I would call them equal to 125yds, maybe 150yds. But I trust my .30-30s out to 225yds. Both are good calibers, but the .30-30 uses a longer (higher BC) bullet of close to the same weight, and slightly higher velocity. So to me, there is no advantage to the .30-30 until ranges start stretching beyond 150 yds. Inside of that, the .357 does the same job for me while burning about half the powder to do it. The nice thing about the Rossi, like has been said, is how easy it is to fit a bullet to the slow ROT. All my leverguns are good for 1.25-1.5"@100 when I do my part, but 2" normally, regardless of make or caliber.

[RPRNY]

Great news. .357 Magnum is now 150 yard cartridge. We can pretty much do away with rifle cartridges altogether. Why 8" drop at 150 yards isn't inconvenient at all.

There is a reason that many previously shotgun only Areas have been opened to pistol caliber rifle hunting. Pretending 357 Mag is an effective 150 yard round doesn't help make the case.

"I can hit something, mostly, at 150 yards" is not the same thing as suggesting it is a reliable hunting cartridge at that distance.

I'm not saying that you can't reliably manage 8" of drop in your rifles at 150 yards. I'm saying that fact does not make the 357 Mag a reliable 150 yard whitetail cartridge.

[quilbilly]

Great news. .357 Magnum is now 150 yard cartridge. We can pretty much do away with rifle cartridges altogether. Why 8" drop at 150 yards isn't inconvenient at all.

There is a reason that many previously shotgun only Areas have been opened to pistol caliber rifle hunting. Pretending 357 Mag is an effective 150 yard round doesn't help make the case.

"I can hit something, mostly, at 150 yards" is not the same thing as suggesting it is a reliable hunting cartridge at that distance.

I'm not saying that you can't reliably manage 8" of drop in your rifles at 150 yards. I'm saying that fact does not make the 357 Mag a reliable 150 yard whitetail cartridge.

This is one of the reasons I do my own terminal ballistics tests at 40 yards on my range at home. Arbitrarily, I have limited my deer hunting cartridges to about 9" or more of penetration at 40 yards to be reliable at 100 yards. I use my 357 max carbine a lot at various muzzle velocities to test the 357 caliber. In a recent test, I ran a Lyman 173 gr Keith Style plain base SWC at 1350 fps against both a 155 gr RNPB at 1200 and a 160 gr SWC-GC at 1780 fps. The penetration results in soaked compacted phone books was: 173 gr = 8", the 155 gr RNPB = 8", and the 160 gr SWC-GC = 12-1/2". In contrast, a couple years back I did the same test on a 30/30 - 160 gr RN-GC at 1550 fps and it got 17-1/2" of penetration. I am not saying they all won't do the job but that 30/30 gets you a lot more room for error and I have erasers on all my pencils. One of the reasons my 45 cal muzzleloader with sabotted 357 158 gr boolits was so effective on mule deer out as far as 150 yards (my maximum eyesight with iron sights) was that those boolits started out of the bore at almost 1900 fps.

[Lonegun1894]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but I never said it is a flat shooter out to 150 or beyond. What I did say is that I trust it in my hands. I also said I practice a lot. For a little more background info, I also bowhunt, and as anyone that does also knows, range estimation is extremely important. In addition to shooting to at least double the distance I intend to hunt to, I also practice range estimation by picking an object, estimating the range, and then checking myself with a laser range finder. The "object" is often a deer or other animal in the off season, but I do not carry the range finder while hunting. As to practice, I practice shooting my bow to 90 yds, but limit my hunting shots to 40yds max, and usually keep things inside 20. For my .357 rifles, I practice out to 400 yds, and my .30-30s out to 500yds, but there is obviously no way I will take a shot like that at game. What that does allow me to do however, is know exactly what my chosen weapon will do, at what range, and know weather or not I have any business taking a shot or not. It also makes the hunting shots a lot easier since they're a lot closer than the hunting shots.

I do have to ask though, what .357 load is it that drops 8" at 150yds, and with what zero? Cause mine is a 158gr at just over 1900fps out of my 20" Rossi 92, and sighted in at 135yds puts it within 3" of POA out to a tested 165 yds. Yes, it drops like a rock past that. Im not saying it is a do everything for everyone choice of caliber, but for my small deer and the hogs around here, it works just fine. Now, I'm not trying to start a storm here, cause I love the .45-70 and have a couple of them also, but a 405gr out of a .45-70 has to be moving around 1700fps and be sighted in the same way to match the trajectory of the .357 out to 160yds, and most loads out there don't ever get moving that fast, so maybe we should start recommending against the .45-70 as a deer rifle also, since the shooter actually has to know his and his weapons limitations and trajectory. I'm not trying to start a fight, just pointing out that everything any one of us uses has advantages and disadvantages. I just get a bit defensive when people start saying you shouldn't do this or that based on faulty logic/numbers, or because they don't think they can do it. Any one of us can do something better than another member of the forum, and it may not even be gun related, but we each have a skill. My, um, mental defect, is that if you tell me something can't be done, I will take you with a grain of salt, and do my own testing on paper to see if it is possible, and then start considering if it is doable in the field. I also grew up being told a ML was useless past 50yds by a "experienced hunter" friend of the family, and that it couldn't hit a deer past that range. You can imagine his face when I asked him out to the range at 19yrs old, pulled out a cheap CVA St. Louis Hawken .50, and shot 3" groups with it at 100yds, all because he had told me all my teenage years that it couldn't be done. Same thing applies to some of these conversations. Yes, pistol calibers, weather fired out of rifles or hanguns, are still and always will be lesser performers when compared to a .30-06 for example, but that doesn't mean they won't do some pretty impressive things in their own right when used by a shooter who is willing to actually work up a load and test til they know what it can and can't do. Now if we're talking about a "hunter" who pulls his rifle out of the closet a week before season, fires a couple shots to make sure he is still on paper, then takes one deer and puts the gun away til next year, then you're absolutely right, a .357 is not near enough gun, but neither is anything else since I personally don't trust a shooter like that with anything, including a bb gun.

[Geezer in NH]

you can use black powder in a 30-30 too.

Sure can!!!!!!!!!!

[blademasterii]

I happen to have both of those with pistols in the same calibers. I think the .357 is more versatile. It will drop a deer or most game this side of a moose under 100 yards with the right load. You can also load .38 swc target loads and it shoots just as well. I have mine threaded and suppressed and it is probably the most fun gun I own. It is a straight walled cartridge that has been in production for 100 years. So 38 brass is everywhere cheap. You can load it with a 148g swc with 3.5g unique and it shoots just fine. That means 2000 rounds per lb of unique. If you cant cast .38 or .357 boolits then this game may not be for you. I can absolutely say you will not be disapointed with buying a .357 lever. I have the rossi and it feeds and shoots fine. It is light, compact and hard hitting with the right loads.

[.5mv^2]

My suggestion would be to look for a used Marlin 30-30 336. My wife picked up a Western Auto branded Marlin at a dealer. Was 250 or so. Shoots great. cycles fast.

[JesterGrin_1]

As far as the .357 Magnum goes I would keep looking for a good used Marlin for a decent price and while doing that keep abreast of what is going on with Remington and the New Marlins as they might get there act together and produce a good rifle again. I sure hope they do to be honest.

I will also say that I do not feel that we are anywhere near a point where we have to worry about a true survival scenario. And besides that if you do some reading you will find that even back during the Great Depression that the Deer in many places were almost wiped out. That in and of itself should tell you something.

I am not going to take anything away from the .357 Magnum as I have an Old Pre Safety Marlin 1894 in .357 Magnum and feel it is probably the best all around Rifle one can have as almost anyone can shoot one well and it can be used from just having fun to small game up to Deer to about 100 yards. But for Deer hunting it would not be my first choice only a Have to choice.

So what I would do and have done as of late is keep your eye out for a good deal on a Marlin 336 in 30-30 Winchester as it can also be used about the same as the .357 Magnum but it is better for longer distances and bigger game.

I did not run across a good deal for me on a Marlin but found a beat up Old Post 64 Winchester 94 in 30-30 Winchester that I hope to play with soon.

[Camba]

I had been testing and learning on cast boolit shooting and success is beginning to show up (in my 7mm TCU anyway) I can't help it to look over the rifles mentioned that would be great cast boolit rifles. The 30-30 win and the 357 mag levers had been mentioned quite a bit by the ones who are way ahead of me in cast boolits. I just can't believe how pricey and unavailable they are. I went to one of the area LGS and they have a Rossi 92, octagon barrel, 24", 357 mag in stainless, used. He's asking a few bucks shy of $700. I thought I can live without it and keep on looking for a good used Marlin.

[bangerjim]

I have the Rossi 38.357 and 45LC carbines. LOVE THEM! Both with only iron sites. Deadly accurate at 75+ yards. A friend shot the stainless steel 38 the other day and now MUST have one. He could hit things better with that 38 than he could with his scoped 30-30. And much "softer" and cheaper to shoot.

The Lee 158gn SWC is my favorite for the 38SPL.

I shoot every weight of boolit up to 300gn in the 45 with extreme success. I powder coat everything......gave up greasy lubes a year ago......and have not looked back.

I have had NO problems with Rossi at all. Would recommend them in a heartbeat!

bangerjim

[facetious]

How is the muzzle blast and recoil of the 16" and 20" .357s compare to 30-30s of the same lenghth ?

[Lonegun1894]

This is going to be a somewhat skewed comparison, but I'll try. My only 16" is a .357 Winchester 94, so heavier than my Rossi 92 20", even if it is shorter. Between the two of them, there is obviously slightly more muzzle blast in the 16" barrel, but less recoil also. Now the 16" .357 feels like it weighs about the same as my Winchester 94s in .30-30 with 20" barrels. Both recoil and muzzleblast are greater with the .30-30s in this case. Not objectionable or uncomfortable with either by any means, but just noticeable. Going up to the 20" .30-30 94s, and the 20" .30-30 336, and the 20" Rossi .357, it stays consistent. The 20" .357 has noticeably less muzzleblast and recoil, but when I say noticeably, I mean when shooting without hearing protection, which I try to minimize. With hearing protection, I don't really notice the difference between the two in muzzle blast, but that is due to not having been as smart as I should have been about hearing protection in my younger days so I may not be a good person to be asking. Recoil, at least to me, is light in both, but the .30-30 has slightly more. I just wish I had some way to measure muzzleblast and recoil to be able to give some form of measurement that might mean something. I learned that subjective descriptions can be misleading when I went shooting with a friend who brought his Rem 700 in .308Win and I brought my Marlin 336 .30-30, and he fired a few shots and handed me my rifle back, saying the recoil was painful, and then went back to shooting his .308. I can't explain it other than maybe stock shape being a bad fit for him on my 336. It was a good lesson to learn.

[ValorsMinion]

I have a 16" rossi 92 in 44mag and wish I would have got one in 357 instead. I picked mine up used a few years ago and dont have much money in it. I don't think the rossi 92 is worth the $500 they seem to be going for now. I surly would not pay that much for one.

Shooting full power 265gr loads, my 92 puts more hurt on my shoulder than my 375 ruger. I think its the short stock with curved metal butt plate and the sub 5lb weight that combine to make it more "fun" than I am willing to subject myself to for more than a few rounds. Its a shooter and enjoyable with 44 special loads. Still, it is a rough gun with bad wood and some minor finish issues. I installed a spring kit that I got from brownells and now the action is smooth and the trigger is acceptable. It also quit ejecting brass into the stratosphere. Like I said though, its still no $500 gun imo. I'd give $350 tops for a nice one in 357 mag.

You should be able to pick up a used 30-30 marlin or winchester for $2-300 from pawn shops, gun shows, local classifieds/forums etc. You should be able to get a decent one shipped and transferred from gunbroker for about $50 more if you watch and wait.

[HiVelocity]

Rossi's are the only way to go. They're closer to the original 92' design and the actions are stronger than all the rest.

HV

[jmort]

"They're closer to the original 92' design and the actions are stronger than all the rest."

Yes indeed.

[Tom_in_AZ]

IMO the Rossi can't compare with the quality of the Marlin.

[Lonegun1894]

I've seen good and bad Rossis and Marlins. I mean, not too long ago, a lot here were saying that the new Marlins were trash, so I think it's just a matter of inspecting and making sure you get a good example, regardless of if you get a Marlin or a Rossi. I have never had a bad one of either, but I check them carefully before I put my money on the counter. And having several of both, I would say they are equal, with the main difference being ease of scope mounting, which doesn't matter to me since I use irons with all my leverguns.

[Grizzly Adams]

You didn't ask about 44mag, but that would be my go to survival gun, about same power of 30-30 but holds more and bigger bullets, granted you give up a little in trajectory but neither are going to be a long range gun. Yes they are pricey but you tend to get what you pay for, although the Mossberg 30-30 looks interesting. I have never owned a Rossi, but I have worked on several for friends and would not buy one unless it was extremely cheap. I would rather have someone's old beat up truck Marlin or Winchester then a brand new Rossi. Just one mans opinion.

[RPRNY]

You didn't ask about 44mag, but that would be my go to survival gun, about same power of 30-30 but holds more and bigger bullets, granted you give up a little in trajectory but neither are going to be a long range gun. Yes they are pricey but you tend to get what you pay for, although the Mossberg 30-30 looks interesting. I have never owned a Rossi, but I have worked on several for friends and would not buy one unless it was extremely cheap. I would rather have someone's old beat up truck Marlin or Winchester then a brand new Rossi. Just one mans opinion.

I understand the pistol caliber lever love. Really. But these facetious comments about their equality with a rifle cartridge spoil the love.

Sights aside, a30-30 delivered 150 grain 308 sp has considerably more energy at its maximum point blank range of 220 yards than a 240 gr 44 cal pistol bullet has at its MPBR of 150 yards. It's not hate, it's physics. Inside 100 yards, I'd rather have the bigger hole from the 44. Thereafter, it's the 30-30 for velocity and energy on target. And that's without the Leverevolution cool-aid. Come on brother, you want to go long in 44, it's the 444 !

[popper]

You. On always download the 30/30 for plinking of small varmint hunting, not so with the 357. Lever guns have more drop to the stock so felt recoil is greater.