Loading DumDum boolits for self defense

[Dutchman]

Either way - the term "Dum Dum"is a Hollyweird and TV term, not a real gun term that is used.

See Mostly Murder by Sir Sydney Smith. published 1959 detailing some of his forensic examinations of homicides in the early 20th century. He uses the term several times with explanation.
http://www.amazon.com/Mostly-Murder-.../dp/1104853264

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal
It was at this arsenal that Captain Neville Bertie-Clay developed the so-called "Dum-dum bullet" (Mark IV cartridge), an exposed-nose bullet designed to mushroom in flesh. This was the first expanding bullet for military use, later banned from use in warfare by the Hague Convention.


The Box O' Truth #32 - Dum-Dum Bullets and the Box O'Truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm

A learned monograph on the origins of a much mis-used term of today
http://www.thegunzone.com/dum-dum.html

The etymology of the word certainly predates Hollywood.

Dutch

[MtGun44]

Yes, the use is factually linked to the Dum Dum Arsenal - no doubt that is real. IMO,
that useage is very out-dated in the late 20th century, and is kept alive only in
movie lingo. It seems found in those special places where Colt SAAs fire 15 or 20 times in
a row, an "expert shot" misses with a rifle at 25 yds many times, and a different
expert shot can hit an Indian on a fast horse at 200 yds with a quick shot - by resting
the barrel of his SAA on the elbow crook of the off arm.

I have never heard anyone that actually knows much about guns, and is not
on a movie say "he used a dum dum bullet". I stand by the statement as far as
useage in the last 30-40 years in the USA.

It is like "semi-automatic machine guns" and "loading bullets into my clip" and
"reached for my gat" and other Hollweird, Sam Spade and news media gun "lingo" which
I never see in gun magazines, or hear it with my many shooting friends or in the
books I read [or web sites where I hang out ]

But no question - there is an absolutely real, historical connection with expanding bullets
and the Dum Dum Arsenal in India. So, it is not technically wrong like "bullets" for cartridges,
just slightly odd and outdated.

Bill

[18Z4X]

I know a couple lawyers who've done extensive research into the subject as it appears in case law and guess what? There are no cases in United States legal history to support what you suggest. None. You are propagating FUD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_u...inty_and_doubt

Dutch

With all respect, "Case Law" and what some Sleazy Attorney will do to influence a Jury are two different things. And such things Have Come Up.

DEA Agent Frank White of the New York, Miami, Chicago, & D.C. Field Offices and participant in Operation Snowcap was grilled on the Stand concerning an "Officer Involved Shooting" (Frank being the Officer). The Attorney was attempting to make a case that because Agent White carried a .45 pistol while most other DEA Agents carried 9mm pistols at the time, it showed that he had a mental propensity toward Excessive Force just by carrying a more powerful handgun.

I am a retired Narcotics Officer, Police Firearms Instructor, and Officer-Involved-Shooting Investigator of 23 years, and I will ONLY carry Factory Ammunition that is made to standards accepted for Law Enforcement Use.

If anyone wants to give some Civil Litigation Attorney the opportunity to tell a jury that he used Home-Made Zombie-Killer ammunition in a Use-of-Force Incident, please feel free to do so. To me, it is worth the $21.95 to purchase Premium Ammunition, and never have that question be raised.

[trucker76]

I know a couple lawyers who've done extensive research into the subject as it appears in case law and guess what? There are no cases in United States legal history to support what you suggest. None. You are propagating FUD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_u...inty_and_doubt

Dutch

True, but who wants to be the first?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If you have to shoot someone in self defense, as in a home defense or property defense you might want to check the state laws where you live....some people are and have been prosecuted for shooting this poor SOB with a HOME MADE boolit that is intended to cause death and maiming that a normal high velocity HP would not do ?????? No it doesn't make any sense to anyone except the lawyer that is trying to get the scumbag out of jail and put you in it. Just a thought for the cautious....practice with boolits, hunt Game with boolits, but keep something around with Factory bullets in the clip/cylinder for the nasty business as often as it is feasible . The gun laws of the big US towns and States are beyond our ability to apply reason to the facts... and most of our colleges are turning these leaches out on conveyor belts....so they will stop at nothing to make $$$$ IMHO , Jim

[MtGun44]

"some people are and have been prosecuted "

I challenge you to cite one actual case - I don't believe this baloney. Ayoob has stated this,
too - but the only case he ever mentioned hinged on the powder burns at a close range
shot being unusually low for a handload compared to a factory load, calling into question
a suicide.

I sometimes carry handloads and am entirely unconcerned about it.

Bill

[Jupiter7]

"some people are and have been prosecuted "

I challenge you to cite one actual case - I don't believe this baloney. Ayoob has stated this,
too - but the only case he ever mentioned hinged on the powder burns at a close range
shot being unusually low for a handload compared to a factory load, calling into question a suicide.

I sometimes carry handloads and am entirely unconcerned about it.


Bill

Im with ya Bill. No evidence of prosecution where handloads were deciding factor of guilt. In fact, there is a case where handloads were used and shooter found innocent. I've carried cast hanloads numerous
times, no qualms about it.

Case 1 quote

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.


Handloads prevented procecustion as Bill eluded to:
Quote:
For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

[Grendel99]

The Box of Truth testing 'dum-dum' bullets was neat. I would have thought the 9mm and .45 hardball made into 'dum-dum' bullets would have done a little more. The FMJ rifle bullet loaded backwards performed pretty well considering.

As far as carrying handloads or factory for self-defense, I tend to side with factory ammo. For one, modern hollow-points just work and work well. There is a reason every law enforcement agency uses them. One thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned is penetration. The guys who carry hardball/round noses almost makes me cringe. They over-penetrate like crazy and are more prone to ricochets. I believe it was the NYPD that was one of the last to issue JHP's to their officers. They thought JHP's were inhumane and were super bullets. They had a shooting where two cops shot at an armed suspect using their issued FMJ 9mm loads and though they hit the suspect several times, they also ended up hitting several people behind the suspect after the FMJ slugs went straight through. I don't believe any of them died, but they ended up suing the NYPD and won. Shortly after this incident the NYPD switched to JHP's. Modern hollow points in self-defense ammo are made to penetrate just enough to stay in the body.

The argument could be made that, statistically speaking, you will probably miss your intended target with a few of your shots and that nullifies the over penetration thing. I can definitely see that point but if you did, god forbid, hit a bystander, then that JHP wouldn't penetrate that person and keep going and hit who knows what. Also if you hit something solid, like a wall, it is more likely to not ricochet.

You can state that there hasn't been a single case where someone using handloads has been convicted because of it in a SD situation, but why give lawyers more 'ammo' so to speak, to use against you? As our society becomes more politically correct, more gun laws, more people who are anti-gun, I don't want to be the person that becomes that 'one case'. The likely-hood that you will even be in a self-defense situation where you have to use your gun is very remote, much less when the issue of if you used factory loads or handloads pops up, but I don't want anything that the opposing lawyer could use against me. People say, they would rather be judged by 12 instead of carried by six. Well I tend to agree with that, but what's the point if your life is ruined because you lost all your money defending your 'clean shoot' in the two years you were in court. Maybe you took a plea-bargain because the situation seemed hopeless and now you're a convicted felon (obviously assuming you were charged with a felony, just making a point) who can never own a firearm again. Wow, that turned out much longer than I intended.

[popper]

Yup, crapola TV word. Tried it with 22LR when I was a kid (and TV gangster movies were IN). Doesn't work worth a darn. Just get WFN, SWC or HP. Kind of like teflon cop-killer stuff (non-cored).

[nicholst55]

Oh, that's because napalm and mines are allowed.

Actually, napalm has been banned for many years now, and they're working hard to outlaw land mines.

[MtGun44]

"more gun laws, more people who are anti-gun,"

You need to get out more. We have 100% of the states now allow some form of concealed carry,
three have no requirement for a license, and about 40 have "shall issue" with simple, objective
criteria. The Supreme Court has clearly stated that the right to "keep and bear" arms is an
individual right, and the only two places were handguns were not permitted to be owned at all
Washington, DC and Chicago, Ill have had to remove their bans and permit people to own
guns - and in DC, prevented the law from keeping the guns in a disassembled or locked state
so that they were unavailable for immediate self defense use.

We are CLEARLY winning the "gun rights are civil rights" battle nationwide, regardless of all
the BS noise the media puts out.

There a provably FEWER gun laws today than a few years ago in most states, with a few
exceptions like Crazy-fornia and New York, but they may well find those laws struck down, too.
Nationwide, the number of people that want guns banned or gun laws tightened is far below
the high water mark set in the 90s, as more people get CCW permits and crime drops, it
is nearly impossible to sell the "guns cause crime" BS anymore, even while the media keeps
up a steady drumbeat - and few are convinced outside of the looney NE big cities, San Fran
and LA. Sarah Brady's nutballs have had to change their name from "The National Coalition
to Ban Handguns" to "Handgun Control" because the original name was WAY unpopular.

Thirty years ago, I think there were no states that has "shall issue" laws, only ONE (Vermont)
which had no requirement for a permit to carry concealed, and most states essentially banned CCW
or limited it to retired cops or friends of the chief of police. Even Illinois has shall issue CCW -
by direct order of the federal courts because not having it violates the "bear arms" part of
the 2nd Amendment. We can now carry in National Parks, and Kansas has passed a law saying
state, county and city buildings must have a metal detector and guard at every entrance if
they want to exclude CCW holders from bringing in their guns. Kansas just passed a law
overriding 100% of all local gun laws that restrict guns, purchasing them or ammunition
in any way. We are definitely on the winning side now.

Bill

[popper]

IIRC, Texas just passed one to prevent federal encroachment on state purchase,ownership & carry laws. Does Kansas still have chambered open carry? Many states are correcting their previous poor gun laws to ones that actually make sense. Only local decisions are on where you can shoot - that has caused lots of problems here but the state is trying to fix it. Money still talks

[MtGun44]

Kansas has always had open carry, except for some cities. Recently the state attny general issued
an opinion that any cities that have laws against open carry cannot ban it, but only may prescribe
the "manner", such as in a holster, with the safety on, etc. Most suburbs of KC have given up and
agreed to permit it, but some are fighting in court, being sued by the Libertarian Party. They will
likely lose. Open carry is still unusual, but is starting to happen, and people are starting to adjust
to it.

Bill

[JSnover]

As far as carrying handloads or factory for self-defense, I tend to side with factory ammo. For one, modern hollow-points just work and work well. There is a reason every law enforcement agency uses them.

Everyone seems to have missed that point. From local police departments to the various federal agencies, I don't think anyone in law enforcement has ever been authorized to load their own for official use or to contract a custom shop because factory ammunition was thought to be inferior.

[MtGun44]

Lots of LE departments used to cast their own ammo and load it up. Stopped
doing it in the last 30 years or so. I'm sure it was primarily for practice ammo,
but I'd be real surprised if none was ever used on the street.

Today - cops don't really know or care much about guns, no way they'd hang
around and load up ammo at the cop shop like used to happen. A friend who
has retired as a local PD training officer told me that most of the current crop
of police officers "are about as interested in their guns as they are in their
flashlights, just a tool to use, provided by the city". That was at least 20 yrs
ago, I doubt that there has been a sudden surge of police recruits who are
really into guns. So - they buy factory ammo - and the factories build their
JHPs to meet the FBI standard - the only standard that was ever recognized
on bullet performance. "Good enough for the FBI, good enough for me" is
pretty much the attitude.

Bill

[Grendel99]

Thanks Bill for telling me to get out more, that's helpful. While I agree we are more or less 'winning' on the side of gun owners, there are a ton of new gun laws. We have something like 10,000 plus gun laws now. We finally have some sort of concealed carry in all 50 states. How was that accomplished? Through passing laws. We have all sorts of laws restricting magazine capacity (several of which were recently passed due to the Sandy Hook shooting), gun free zones, where you can carry concealed, where you can leave your firearm (home, business, school), and waiting periods. I would definitely argue we have a lot more laws that are gun related than we did even five years ago. We might have more laws but overall it seems things are going well for the 2nd amendment despite who our president is.

I remember hearing stories of police stations having big gang molds to cast thousands of wadcutters for their revolvers and assigning a guy or two to just crank out ammo with their reloaders at the station. That certainly would go over well today though it could be beneficial with how badly most departments budgets are. In Jim Cirillo's book he mentions trying out different handloads and bullet types that he used on duty. If I remember correctly he liked to have the first chambered round in his 1911 to be a full wadcutter. It does seem like a lot of police officers these days don't know jack about guns. A lot of them have never even fired a gun before their training.

[Dutchman]

I am a retired Narcotics Officer, Police Firearms Instructor, and Officer-Involved-Shooting Investigator of 23 years, and I will ONLY carry Factory Ammunition that is made to standards accepted for Law Enforcement Use.

(I deleted my response to this statement in order to keep a more congenial atmosphere in the forum)

Home-Made Zombie-Killer ammunition

This is part of the problem. Your perception of what I may shoot is skewed. Incorrect. In my vintage 1933 Colt Gov't I shoot nothing but 230 gr round nose cast bullets. They feed all the time. There's nothing exotic about them, nothing extra special, they don't kill zombies any faster or deader. This is the cast bullet forum. Everybody here shoots cast bullets.



Dutch

[18Z4X]

The subject is "Loading DumDum Boolits". Questions were also asked about "x-ing" and drilling the tips of home-made projectiles, and that qualifies them as being considered "exotic" by some.

I've been involved in Both Ends of justified shootings (as both a Subject & an Investigator), and it is Never a pleasant experience.

A civil litigation case does not require a unanimous verdict from the jury; only a majority.

This was just to help deprive some Lawsuit Attorney of One More Arrow in his Quiver when he's licking his chops & looking at suing someone who Legally used force.

(The following is not to compare anyone here to O.J Simpson, but shows the System)
Even O.J was found "Not Guilty" in the Criminal Case, but was sued in a Civil Case for the same Event and Lost.

Anyone else can carry whatever he likes. It won't jeopardize the equity in my own house.

But remember the quote attributed to George Patton after his incident, "I wish I'd kissed the S.O.B."

[18Z4X]

(By the way, I've cast my own bullets since 1971.)

[phonejack]

You need to google that phrase and learn how it came to be. Hint, British arsenal in India