Why can't the S&W M24 take M29 pressures...or can it?

[BCRider]

On a gun where the chamber was a hair advanced compared to the forcing cone I could see a rather strong hit as the bullet passes from the cylinder to the forcing cone occurring. And with all the recoil energy pushing and pulling the stop bolt might just jump out of the notch enough to let the cylinder kick back and then relock in the previously fired position.

Certainly there must be some radial kick to produce this. And the only place I can see the radial kick coming from is some throat to forcing cone mis-alignment.

Yes? No? I'm not a proper wheelgun smith. Nor do I play one on TV. But I do stay at Howard Johnson hotels to increase my online believability....

[WallyM3]

Well, the Howard-Johnson's connection surely merits respectful consideration.

I think that I will try the dictum of a compatriot of yours in BC by drawing the mechanical parts, 10 times size, so that I can "walk around" inside the operation and understand what's going on. Physical limits cannot be overcome.

[leftiye]

I don't much like taking punishment, either, but there's a good bit of confidence riding on one's right hip when the load is hot. Otherwise, I shoot very light for pleasure. I used to do some plinking with a .500 Nitro with light loads. No more.

Do some research on .44 penetration (hint: 44s have it in spades). There is only a small portion of a 44 mag's energy used up in perforating a deer or a man. The rest is expended in the backdrop (standersby?). Hot loading a .44 (mag or special) won't matter to the target deer or horse's **** but hardly atall. Study thread in hunting with cast boolits determined that lighter boolits and any ole velocity you like in a 44 special was deer medicine. Exception would be with JHPs where more velocity would provide betterer expansion. With JHPs, you have a problem for the 44 special - all of the JHPs are made to expand at 44 mag. velocities. I'm not a "make your magnum rifle into a pistol by downloading it" kind of a guy, but .44s have much more kickazz than poor little ole Barack's sons need. That's why the .45 acp is still going so strong. Maybe a 200 grain HP (or 180, or 160 grains) loaded up to expand (you'll still have more than .357 energy levels)?

[GaryN]

I was trying to capture a 44 magnum slug I had cast. It was a Mihec 503 hollowpoint. I lined up eight milk jugs full of water. It went through all of them.

[gunsbrad]

O.K. folks I am here to throw a wrench in the works. Assuming the same grade of steel the 24 and 29 are not the same. The cylinder of the 24 is shorter while the frame window is the same size. This means that a relatively thin section of barrel has to protrude through the frame UNSUPPORTED to reach the cylinder. This is most definitely weaker than the 29.

However, the 24 is plenty strong enough for the healthy pressure tested load data that is out there. All that I have seen is under 30,000psi usually around 27,000psi. With these loads you could get up to 1,200fps from a 250 cast boolit, and you should be able to shoot them forever.

I suspect shooting a few 40,000psi loads probably wont hurt anything, but this old boy ain't gonna try. 250s at 1200 is good with me.

Brad Hurt

[Dan Cash]

O.K. folks I am here to throw a wrench in the works. Assuming the same grade of steel the 24 and 29 are not the same. The cylinder of the 24 is shorter while the frame window is the same size. This means that a relatively thin section of barrel has to protrude through the frame UNSUPPORTED to reach the cylinder. This is most definitely weaker than the 29.......

.....Brad Hurt

Brad, I think if you will check, the "unsupported" barrel section to which you refer is much thicker than the chamber walls of the cylinder so the point is moot. However, if one wants .44 Mag. performance, get a .44 Magnum revolver. Hodroding cars or guns reduces their useful life.
Dan

[WallyM3]

I lost track of my own thread there for a while.

This contemplated project (that of getting solid 4-figure velocity from light jacketed bullets) is for a very limited number of loads. In fact, I have two boxes of 100 Hornady 200gr. XTPs and two boxes of 40 Barnes TAC-XPs to work with and that'll be it. As observed, a steady diet of hot stuff prematurely fatigues both gun and shooter.

Handloader Magazine claims an N-frame-safe velocity of 1,142 fps for Speer's 200gr. Gold Dot (with Clays) and 1,091 fps for the Hornady bullet (with Herco). Extrapolating Lyman's data, these loads would likely be below 20,000 CUP. In fact, the highest recommended charge is still below Lyman's recommended starting load for 44 Magnum with a 200gr. jacketed bullet.

Pushing the lead bullet (potentially even faster) would be an academic exercise since expansion with a WC moots the thing and 200 gr @ 900 fps is more than plenty.

[Jtarm]

I lost track of my own thread there for a while.

This contemplated project (that of getting solid 4-figure velocity from light jacketed bullets) is for a very limited number of loads. In fact, I have two boxes of 100 Hornady 200gr. XTPs and two boxes of 40 Barnes TAC-XPs to work with and that'll be it. As observed, a steady diet of hot stuff prematurely fatigues both gun and shooter.

Handloader Magazine claims an N-frame-safe velocity of 1,142 fps for Speer's 200gr. Gold Dot (with Clays)

Clays? Seriously? Universal or regular?

You had better double check that. If HL actually published a load that generates 1100 FPS with Clays, I'd contact them to make sure it wasn't a mis-print.

I used to get great accuracy from a. 6.5" 624 with 16.5 2400 behind a 429421, then decided I may as well use a magnum.

The LBT ogival WC makes a near-wadcutter-sized hole, but has a bit more range thanks to the slight ogive .

I sometimes wonder how Elmer Keith & friends achieved magnum velocities in those prewar Smiths & Colts. They probably ruined more than a few.

[WallyM3]

My omission. "Universal Clays", not Clays.

This from Issue #224.

Unique, 9.0 gr. 1,072 fps
Herco, 9.5 gr. 1,091 fps
Universal Clays, 9.5 gr. 1,142 fps. (with an extreme spread of 28)

In an earlier edition, they publish results almost 300 fps faster with Pb, but caution that loads can produce up to 40,000 (beyond SAAMI limits, even for 44 Margum). That's waaaay beyond where I'd want to go.

[mark2935]

Wallym3, Is this just a question or are you looking for a self-defense load? If the first, no problem. If you are looking for a self-defense load, stick with commercial .44spl. ammo. Two reasons: Plaintiff's attorney will paint you as a masked ninja killer who built that bullet just to kill his client. (you lose your house etc. etc. etc.) Recovery time, firing a controlled pair with the special loads will be faster than with mag. loads. Just my thoughts.

Mark#35

[WallyM3]

It's primarily a question, but wrapped in a constraint. If I were to follow through, I'd hope it would be his estate filing the suit and that, given the facts, the case would be "thrown out", or that the jury wouldn't necessarily side with the perp's predicament. Of course, nowadays, you never know...even in Vermont.

Then there's that whole "wrongful death" thing. And the insurance company trying to wriggle out of the Umbrella policy.

The loads that I might ultimately try would be hot 44 Specials, but below 44 Magnum, more or less.

Most factory ammo for the 44 Spec. looks pretty ghastly from where I sit. Round noses, slow speed and all.

I though I might get "Are you out of your mind?" kind of responses, but I see some folks are chewing on this one. Really, all I'd like to achieve is expansion in a 200gr jacketed bullet. It appears that this occurs (with the two bullets I have) at 900 fps. Add some margin for a 3" barrel.

[44MAG#1]

Speer #14 manual, 200 gr Gold Dot designed especially for the 44 Special, 8.6 gr PowerPistol 976 fps. 5.5 inch barrel. I use 9 gr with a 250 cast.
Go up slightly until you reach your goal.
Speers load is loaded to not over 15,500 PSI so you have some squirming room.
In a FT Blackhawk or an N-frame Smith I would use 9.5 gr and think nothing about it. You should be close to your goal in a 4 inch gun. 1000 fps is a 4 digit velocity.

[Firebricker]

IIRC they added the Endurance Package to 29s to sturdy them up not sure what year it was. FB

[Char-Gar]

Back in the early 80's Skeeter Skelton though S&W should reintroduce the Model 24 and asked his readers to flood Smith and Wesson with letter to show the interest level. I dutifully wrote such a letter and in due time Smith and Wesson brought out a short run of 24s in 6.5 and 4 inch barrels. I felt obligated to buy one of the 6.5s and so I did. After these sold out, Smith knew a good thing, and brought out another run in stainless, the 624. Lew Horton got into the act had had some 3 inch round butts made in blue and stainless. I ended up with one of these as well.

As soon as we got our hands on these things, we started to hot rod them a la Elmer Keith. The handgun tolerated the Keith 17.5/2400/240 Keith SWC well, the recoil and muzzle flip of the slim barrels was fierce. We soon quit that nonsense. I have no idea if these will stand 40k PSI loads or not, but I for one have no interest in trying.

If a fellow wants to shoot really fierce 44 loads a model 29 made after the 1989 enhancements is the way to go. After a few hundred full snort rounds in the pre-enhanced lockwork Smiths, backspin will prove to be a real problem.

[Char-Gar]

Wallym3, Is this just a question or are you looking for a self-defense load? If the first, no problem. If you are looking for a self-defense load, stick with commercial .44spl. ammo. Two reasons: Plaintiff's attorney will paint you as a masked ninja killer who built that bullet just to kill his client. (you lose your house etc. etc. etc.) Recovery time, firing a controlled pair with the special loads will be faster than with mag. loads. Just my thoughts.

Mark#35

That is a load of nonsense first foisted on the public by a gun writer and it has never been true. Still it gets passed on and passed around years after it has been discredited.

[dubber123]

I wonder just what makes this back spin occur? My first 629 was made in 1984, and it has digested a bunch of 240 gr. XTP's in the 1,300+ fps. range, and a fair amount of 300 gr. LBT WFN's at 1,200+. All loads were run until I was not happy with extraction feel, then backed off. I have never once had the cylinder unlatch, or spin backwards.. My other 629 is an Endurance package gun, so it doesn't count.

[Char-Gar]

I don't think "wrongful death" is the right area of the law for your point. There is a category of torts, known as "Intentional Torts". It is this classification of torts on which the insurance companies tries to skate.

This is why in civil lawsuits against a shooter, the victim claims the shooting was accidental. The lawyers know that if the shooting was intentional, the insurance company will make for the back door. No insurance means no solvent defendant and no solvent defendant means no pay day.

I am talking Texas law here, who knows what the law is in deep Yankeeland, if they have any law up there. They might still have trial by combat for all I know.

[dubber123]

For what it's worth, I have had better luck getting 50/50 lead boolits to expand reliably from revolvers than any jacketed I have tried. A 50/50 HP'd boolit would be what I would carry. Easier to get speed from as a bonus.

[Char-Gar]

I wonder just what makes this back spin occur? My first 629 was made in 1984, and it has digested a bunch of 240 gr. XTP's in the 1,300+ fps. range, and a fair amount of 300 gr. LBT WFN's at 1,200+. All loads were run until I was not happy with extraction feel, then backed off. I have never once had the cylinder unlatch, or spin backwards.. My other 629 is an Endurance package gun, so it doesn't count.

Cylinder backspin was pretty much an unknown thing until the metal silhouette game came into being. The Smith 29 used took a beating from protracted firing they had never experienced before. That is when backspin became and issue and Smith and Wesson decided to fix the problem, which they did.

[WallyM3]

I don't think "wrongful death" is the right area of the law for your point. There is a category of torts, known as "Intentional Torts". It is this classification of torts on which the insurance companies tries to skate.

This is why in civil lawsuits against a shooter, the victim claims the shooting was accidental. The lawyers know that if the shooting was intentional, the insurance company will make for the back door. No insurance means no solvent defendant and no solvent defendant means no pay day.

I am talking Texas law here, who knows what the law is in deep Yankeeland, if they have any law up there. They might still have trial by combat for all I know.

I thought "Wrongful Death" got OJ.

One set of laws we don't have here is gun laws. It's carry at will.

Why not a 29? Certainly I'd like to add one. However, at the present, there isn't, nor will there likely be an extra $1,000 for another Smith. Least wise, not this month. All I want to do is to push the performance a little beyond the usual written for all 44 Special kind of loads in the handbooks, for a very few rounds.

I don't want to go to 40,000 psi, not even 30,000 likely, but if a J-frame can handle 357 type battering, shouldn't the N-frame digest more than 17,000?