Can a 45-70 be fired in 45-90 chamber safely and reasonable accuracy? Seems there are more 45-90's available then 45-70's and I am considering the 45-90 just because of the availability. Thanks Manny
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Can a 45-70 be fired in 45-90 chamber safely and reasonable accuracy? Seems there are more 45-90's available then 45-70's and I am considering the 45-90 just because of the availability. Thanks Manny
Yes to the first, no to the second.
The reason theres more 45-90s is because everyone keeps their 45-70s.
You can create "45/70" loads that fit in a 45/90 case.
Those can be made to shoot very well, and you still have the extra capacity if you ever want it.
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
agree with both reply's. I have a 45-120 that I can load to the power of ... 45-60, 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, and 45-110 ... as well of course the 45-120.
can you fire a 45-70 loaded case in a 45-90 ... yep ... but consider this ... what happens to the extra length of chamber when you shoot a case that is approximately .300 inch short in your 90 chamber. same thing that happens when you shoot ... for example ... 44 spcl in 44 mag, 38 spcl in 357, 45 schofield in 45 colt ... the short case in those longer chambers deposit crud and a slight fire ring in the chamber area of the longer chamber. to say nothing of the JUMP the boolit has to do to get to the beginning of the rifling.
so what happens is that to begin with at ignition ... the fire slams into the smooth area of unused chamber ... then deposits the powder fouling on the remaining chamber ahead of the short case ... then that boolit travels this same distance to the beginning of the rifling where it suddenly has to grab that rifling after getting nearly up to speed and try to begin to spin without depositing lead or copper in the first 3 to 8 inches of your barrel ... now combine this all with the next short case in the longer chamber. finally you have some fire cutting in the chamber as well as baked on crud that has to be scrubbed outta there before the next 'proper' length case is used. also the buildup of lead or copper fouling needs to be completely cleaned out of the entire barrel as the deposits will not stop at the breech area ... they WILL travel down the entire length of barrel.
after having said this ... in an emergency ... I would certainly shoot any of the for mentioned 45 cal cartridges in my 120 chamber if I found myself in a bind ... and with full confidence that it would be safe and not dangerous to shooter or rifle IF proper cleaning was conducted in a timely fashion.
just sayin.
Ted pretty much covered it and I don't think I would want to do it on a regular basis but I have shot quite a few 45/70 rounds in my 45/90 with no ill effects so far (I have a bore scope) and the family member that has the old 45/90 Winchester lever action I had when I was a kid has been shooting 45/70s successfully in it for many years, it appears all the horror stories about accuracy being non-existant seem to be a bit over blown. Of course that depends entirely on what one considers accurate, for target shooting there will be a slight but noticeable loss so for hunting there would be no problem but for precision shooting or competition forget it. The bottom line is yes you can do it and yes the accuracy will be ok for hunting and casual target shooting but I would not recommend buying a 45/90 with the intention to only shoot 45/70 rounds because most any rifle will do lot better all around with the right ammo.
I once had a 45-90 in a 1886 Winchester. This was forty years ago, and extra long cases were not available, so we used 45-70. All the bullets keyholed, even through the bore looked really nice. My father sold it, wished I still had it.
Great info guy's, I'll stick to 45-70 in a 45-70 just wait for the right rifle to show up.
Sounds like the same model Winchester I had when I was growing up and my uncle still has to this day, all we ever shot in it was 45/70 because that's all we could get, except for the three and one half boxes of original factory rounds (and throwing away the brass!) I shot away at rocks and such but that's another sad story. My uncle still has it to this day and still shoots factory 45/70 loads since he does not reload and the rifle shoots them just fine, he has taken a lot of deer and two black bear with the thing along with many hogs but these are of course all jacketed rounds. While the rifling is a bit slow for the 405 gr factory loads keyholing has not been a problem and accuracy has been more than adequate for hunting and plinking, I would imagine the keyholing you experienced would have more to do with the slow rifling and the 45/70 bullet than it would because of the shorter case. Ted's post is a really good description of what happens, especially the part about the acceleration of the bullet in what amounts to a lot of free bore when it hits the rifling, and I suppose a bullet without the benefit of a jacket would tend to strip away lead before the rifling could impart a spin. With a jacketed bullet this should not be a problem however and it's likely the fact that all I have ever shot was jacketed bullets when shooting 45/70 rounds would be a very important reason why I have not had problems. My rifle is a 1-18" twist and while waiting on my 45/90 brass I have shot a lot of 45/70 with 400 gr Speer jacketed bullets at max loads for Marlin Lever guns (and 10 at max Ruger no. 1 velocities when proof testing the rifle) and all of the Marlin loads shot good groups, again accuracy is relative to what one expects but the groups were only slightly worse than the 45/90 loads. I could see where serious problems could the norm if attempting to shoot 45/70 in the 120 or 110 chamber but 45/90 is not all that much longer and if shooting jacketed bullets and smokeless powder the 45/70 seems to work just fine.Originally Posted by singleshotman
If a person is shooting jacketed bullets then the short case doesn't bother much. But if you got to trying to push lead bullets, then the leading that follows is a real pain in the backside, and is severe enough to destroy any sort of accuracy in 10 rounds or less. That is something I experienced regularly on my Italian Sharps until I finally figured out the chamber on that rifle is a screw up, to long for 45-70 and just a smidge short for 45-90.
If you want a 45-90 then by all means get one. There are cases around a person just needs to look for them . Captech shows they have 2.4's in stock, some places have Starline on hand, and if really crowded a person probably scare up some 2.6 cases and trim them to length.Haven't looked for awhile, but BACO also sells 2.4 cases they have stretched from 45-70 brass.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
That's the bottom line and there are important advantages to the 45-90 over the '70 even if shooting smokeless. Brass is not at all hard to come by and is only slightly more than 45/70 brass, insignificant difference actually, and the fact is the 45-90 is a fantastic round! It's a great BP round and if smokeless is preferred then the the '90 shines there too, compared to the '70 with proper loading it can (due to the longer case) either produce higher velocities at the the same pressure as a comparable 45/70 round or a person can opt for comparable 45/70 velocities at less pressure. It's often stated that there is no advantage to the '90 over the '70 when shooting smokeless but that's not true, according to Lyman in their testing the .45-90 typically produced 200 fps more velocity than the .45-70 at the same pressure levels, so you do gain in the 45-90 vs the '70 even with smokeless. I really think the '90 is a much better cartridge all around and had it been as popular a loading as the 45/70 "back in the day" it very well may have evolved that the '90 would be popular today with the '70 being obsolete, however the vast numbers of rifles in 45/70 vs the few for the longer case plus the military use of the 45/70 insured a virtual glut of the 45/70 ammo vs the '90 leading to the situation we have today. Still I honestly think the 45-90 is being overlooked and with the exception of factory loaded ammo (who shoots that anyway?) it is superior to the 45/70 in just about every way!
Just to repeat your quote and add a bit, " If you want a 45-90 then by all means get one, you will very likely be glad you did"!
BTW, I have not had any problems finding 45-90 cases having bought from both Midway and Track of the Wolf, I just recently bought 200 cases but I notice they are now backordered at both Midway and TOTW but then they are out of 45/70 cases at both places also!
Last edited by oldred; 02-20-2014 at 12:16 PM.
Loading the 2.4 case with smokeless powder seems to me a bit on the silly side. If a person wants to shoot that big case with smokeless, then why not just save some cash outlay on the rifle, and go with a 458 win mag? Same length, heavier cases intended for smokeless powder use, and plenty of pressure tested safe data ..
Black powder is where the 2.4 shines.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I see nothing wrong with just about any of the older cartridges ... however having said that ... if you do not have a 45-70 now then I highly suggest getting one as all the stuff is readily available for it and the loading and experimentation is well documented. the 45-70 in any form is a very easy round to load for and get a satisfying result within a short time.
lots of great things to be said for the 45-70 round ... but ... it all depends on what "talks" to you. if you are anything like myself in that I find ... er been told ... I be just a wee bit hardheaded ... which I believe is a matter of opinion ... then you will not be satisfied till you get what speaks to you. mine was and is a 45-120. I have a love/hate relationship with this round but it does all I ever expected it to do and then some. I do have several 45-70's tho and they are what entertains me most of the time. I flirt with getting a 44-77 and when all settles down I will begin a search in earnest for one but not because my 45-70's have let me down in any fashion.
get and shoot what is in your heart and have fun with it. can always turn another direction when and if your choice gets to hammering you with no mercy.
on the case availability ... what a mess ... hard to tell what exactly the "run" will be on next. glad I have some backlog of brass and lead as well as a bit of powder stashed back. first thing im gonna run outta is primers ... but ill be in the real world here soon so I recon all will work out.
Nothing silly at all about it, better performance at the same pressures with 200 FPS on average and this according to Lyman's tests, so I would say that's a fair advantage. It's the rifle they are fired in that would make the difference, you can't get a HighWall or Sharps in 458 magnum and I personally wouldn't want one if I could get such a beast. The often repeated statement that there's no advantage to the 45-90 when shooting smokeless because the shorter case can be easily loaded to max permissible pressures with case space left ignores the fact that the longer case allows for higher velocity loadings at those same pressures so that statement is not entirely true. Besides the 458 Mag is a whole 'nother animal and while the case capacity is very nearly the same as the 45-90 neither the case nor guns normally chambered for it are designed for 458 Mag pressures. The point is that better performance can be expected at the same pressures with smokeless loadings in addition to better performance with BP, it's just a great round in either instance.
Ever heard of the Ruger #1?
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Sure I have but what's that got to do with the price of eggs in China? I didn't want a Ruger I wanted a High Wall and I wanted it in 45-90 as do a LOT of other folks! Don there's not a darn thing wrong with loading the 45-90 with smokeless, heck the factory loads in smokeless became available almost as soon as smokeless powder came on the scene and was adapted for use in both the '90 and '70 at the same time, smokeless was used from the late 1800s to 1936 when the round was dropped from production so there's no reason to avoid it even from a "Being authentic" standpoint. Lyman, AA and others list smokeless loads so data is out there and it's not hard to find, it may not be as readily available as the 45/70 but that's because until recently there was almost no interest in this round outside of the BP shooters not because it is somehow magically becomes inherently dangerous due to an extra 3/10" of case length. As I said in earlier posts there is an advantage to using this longer case vs the 45/70 when using smokeless and it would make little sense to not take advantage of that, the bottom line is I get better performance from my 45-90 at the same pressure levels than I would with the shorter case and it's in the rifle I want.
Well we'll just leave it at the Lyman manuals don't agree with your pressure and velocity claims between the two cartridges. Neither does any other pressure tested data, but hey it's all in what a fella wants to do.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Not sure what you mean????? Lyman states that in their testing the .45-90 typically produced 200 fps more velocity than the .45-70 at the same pressure levels??????
Are you saying it's DANGEROUS to use smokeless in a 45-90? That's just plain non-sense and the 45-90 is loaded and shot with smokeless everyday, according to Cartridges Of The World it has been since 1895 so where's all the accident reports? The fact is YOU just don't want to approve of using smokeless in what YOU want to be a BP only cartridge, for whatever your reasons, and whether YOU like it or not there IS load data out there but according to you it's going to get someone blown up is that right? I know this is the BP section and I never intended to get off topic which was about using the shorter 45/70 cartridge in the longer chamber but since using smokeless in the 45-90 makes this more practical it was a legitimate point.
Don I am not some dumbarse who recklessly plays around with the unknown, I BUILT my rifle from scratch using raw materials so I do know something about what I am talking about and I know these High Wall rifles inside out I know what they are capable of doing and I know what this cartridge is capable of. I have shot this thing extensively using smokeless loads that I researched extensively, the loads I use most are from ACCURATE ARMS and not some witch's brew I dreamed up and I am well aware of what they do vs the shorter case! I have been researching, and by that I mean including talking with the powder manufacturers, this round and comparing smokeless loads between these two cartridges and these are loads that were recommended by the manufacturers not something I hap-hazardly came up with! Shooting smokeless in the 45-90 is no more hazardous than it is in a 45/70 no matter how badly you seem to want it to be and as this round becomes more popular so will more published smokeless data.
Last edited by oldred; 02-20-2014 at 06:30 PM.
Fine. I'm just saying if I were going to shoot smokeless in a case longer than the 2.1 it would probably have a belt on it.
My take on the actual numbers in the Lyman book are obviously quite different from what you take away from it, and that's fine.
You son do what the samhell ever you feel like, I don't really give a rip what you do. Just saying what I would or wouldn't do, and if that's more than you can emotionally handle, then maybe best you seek some professional help?
Long range rules, the rest drool.
It's got nothing to do with being emotional it's this snobbish tendency to tell people that they should do what YOU want them to do with these old BP rounds, in this case telling me (or at least insinuating) that if I wanted to shoot smokeless in this round I was being silly and should have bought a Ruger no.1 in 458 Win magnum! I didn't want a Ruger no.1 nor do I want magnum loads, what I do want is my High Wall and the PROVEN extra performance of the 45-90 vs the shorter cartridge with either powder type and there is no reason not to do this! You simply ignore the FACT this round was loaded with smokeless from the factory just shy of 120 years ago and has been loaded and shot in thousands of rounds since! You ignore that even the powder manufacturers have safe loads for this round and have no qualms at all about supplying data but YOU say it should not be done. Not everyone wants to always shoot BP but that does not mean they should not be able to shoot the rifle they like just because someone else thinks it's some kind of sacrilege to not pretend it's 1885 every time they want to take their rifle out! The fact is the Rifles are just as much a part of the sport as the powder and if someone enjoys shooting a different powder, for what is sometimes one of many good reasons, in these old traditional style rifles in one of the old chamberings there's no reason they should be discouraged from doing so as long as they are doing it safely. In this case safety simply was not an issue and you can get mad and huff and puff all you like but that will not make it so!
Last edited by oldred; 02-20-2014 at 10:36 PM.
Who needs an extra 200 fps with smokeless? I only want to go 1300 fps.
Talking about maximum smokeless performance in a BP round is bizarre.
Who cares if the pressure is lower if the rifle is a strong design?
If the rifle is a weaker design why are you shooting smokeless in it?
For me the 45-90 is nothing but negatives unless shooting BP at longer ranges.
EDG
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