Fastest accurate cast bullet load.

[dondiego]

Personally, I'll take slower and a hit; than faster and a miss. But, that's just me.

Me too, but he didn't say he missed.

[dtknowles]

The point of higher velocity is to have a flatter trajectory so that errors in range estimation have a smaller effect. I know that is meaningless when shooting at a measured 100 yards but load development has to start somewhere. I will be testing at longer ranges but I have to travel farther and pay a fee to shoot at longer ranges. I guess that with rangefinders and mildot reticles this is less important than it used to be.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Give it up, Larry. A cast boolit CAN easily give excellent accuracy at extremely high velocity IF you launch it correctly, you just haven't figured out how to do that yet like some people have. Just because you can't doesn't mean someone else can't. Paper jackets and sabots make a better launch easier to achieve at high pressure/velocity/fast twist than a bare boolit, so they shoot better. The sabot has the triple advantage of launching a smaller DIAMETER boolit and fully supporting the base at crown exit too, so even less circumferential mass to cause balance issues and less muzzle yaw is experienced with those, hence the straighter shooting.

There may be a lot more people than you think interested in HV cast shooting judging by the PMs that myself and a few others get pretty regularly, at least those haven't already let you convince them that it isn't possible before they even tried.

Thanks for your continuing efforts to keep us all in the dark ages of boolit shooting, and for assuming the authority to tell us what our goals are as a whole.

Gear

[onceabull]

AND This is why Paper Patched boolits, or Sabots cum boolits, have been winning all those long range matchs at Camp Perry since the start of the 20th century... Onceabull

[45 2.1]

Give it up, Larry. A cast boolit CAN easily give excellent accuracy at extremely high velocity IF you launch it correctly, you just haven't figured out how to do that yet like some people have. Just because you can't doesn't mean someone else can't. Paper jackets and sabots make a better launch easier to achieve at high pressure/velocity/fast twist than a bare boolit, so they shoot better. The sabot has the triple advantage of launching a smaller DIAMETER boolit and fully supporting the base at crown exit too, so even less circumferential mass to cause balance issues and less muzzle yaw is experienced with those, hence the straighter shooting.

There may be a lot more people than you think interested in HV cast shooting judging by the PMs that myself and a few others get pretty regularly, at least those haven't already let you convince them that it isn't possible before they even tried.

Thanks for your continuing efforts to keep us all in the dark ages of boolit shooting, and for assuming the authority to tell us what our goals are as a whole.

Gear

+1 to Gears post. We have a lot of people around where I live that shoot long range (500 to 800 yards). You have to have a ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type to enjoy that though even with HV loadings. Try that with the common 1,600 fps loading sometime and you'll find out for yourself. We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

[MtGun44]

I don't remember the numbers but Dan at Bull Shop has run some REAL cast boolits (in contact with the bore)
up to some fairly high numbers.

Bill

[leadman]

I have exceeded 3,000 fps with the same 45gr RN Lyman boolit with Carnuba Red for a lube and maintained accuracy around 1.5" for 5 shots, then had to run a dry brush thru the barrel and the next 5 would do the same.
On the Hi-Tek coated boolits at 3,465fps these were 3 shot groups as I was running the first tests trying to acheive high velocity with no leading and checking for accuracy. I also shot the same loads thru my son's AR but they were 300 fps slower and still had about the same accuracy. His is either a 7 or 9 twist, hard to read the marking. My Contender is a 12 twist IIRC. I just fired my first rifle yesterday after having surgery to remove a salavary gland from my left cheek and I'm a lefty so it stopped any testing for awhile. I hope to resume the tests next week.
I do feel the same as Larry that the Hi-Tek is "cheating" the physics of shooting boolits. I have shot various alloys and estimated the strength of the alloy with the info in Lee second manual. I can tell when I have overpressured the alloy by the light gray smoke that comes out the muzzle. One advantage of shooting a boolit that the lube does not smoke. This usually happened well beyond the figures in Lee's manual so I can only guess at what is happening. It would take some equipment that I do not have access to to try to determine if I am correct.
I am going to switch the 223 from H4895 to Tac as the load of 27.5grs of H4895 fills the case almost to the top of the case neck. I should be able to get higher velocity with the TAC if my previous use of it holds true.
Coating the boolits with Hi-Tek is neither complicated or expensive. My ovens come from Goodwill and a liter of HT will coat approx. 26,000boolits for less than $90 delivered to my door.

[Larry Gibson]

Gear and 45 2.1

Hard to give up on the truth. Lots of folks here know about the RPM threshold and where they lose accuracy. Yes you can add copper to the alloy, PP the bullet, put it in a sabot and put it in a jacket and achieve accuracy at higher velocity. Other than you two making claims I don't see a "lot of people" coming forward with such claims of moa and less accuracy at 500 - 800 yards at HV with regular cast bullets. Just who are these "lot of people"?

It's not too hard to shoot 500 - 800 yards with a cast bullet. Was a fellow here had a thread going on doing just that with the 311299 I think(?). Was using a .308W and was pushing the RPM threshold but wasn't past it. I've done the same with my M70 .308Ws with 12' twists and that same bullet. It doesn't take a "ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type " scope either. I've done it with the issue sights on my M1903, the Redfield Palma rear sight on my M70 Target rifle and the Lyman 48 on my M1903 National Match Type II. Oh, I also shoot out to 1000 yards with cast bullets using the tang sights on my M1873 match rifle and my M1873 OM. I also do it with just about any scope that is readily adjustable in elevation and has repeatable adjustments. It's a matter of getting an initial zero at 200 or 300 yards with the scope adjusted near the bottom of the elevation adjustment. It's correct bases here that do the trick.

I also have a couple mildot scopes and several target scopes w/o the "ballistic-plex" reticle that also work fine. I do have a couple ballistic plex scopes also and they do work ok. I prefer to make sight corrections though as that is the more accurate method for longer range shooting. Just check out the match shooter shooting Palma and 600 - 1000 yard matches sometime. Won't see any of them using a "ballitic-plex" for aiming..........you also won't see many snipers use mildots for precision shooting, they reach up and turn the elevation knob to the range; that's what it's there for and it is far more precise at longer ranges, even "unknown ranges" than using guestimated hold over which is what using the ballitic-plex reticle is. But then none of them obviously know what they're doing as you are the expert on all this HV long range shooting.....you and "a lot of people around where I live "......

We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

That's pretty awesome 45 2.1.....not zeroed at any one distance and you are accurate at 500 - 800 yards and "unknown ranges".....just plumb amazing.......That's some "skill" alright. Bet the military sniper schools are beating down your door for you to teach them that "secret".

BTW; I have shot cast bullets over 3000 fps, that's easy to do if the cartridge is capable of it. I have also shot a 16" twist .22 center fire at 3200 fps with very good accuracy. Not the best accuracy the rifle was capable of but very good none the less. I do know how to shoot regular cast bullets at higher velocity with accuracy and am willing to show anyone, my door is always open.

How about you gear? I'll be going through Texas, right by Kerrville next month. Gear how bout I stop by Kerrville and you can show me how you shoot cast bullets accurately at HV? I'll bring my Oehler M35P along so we can compare it's velocities to your claims, how about it?

In March on my way home I can easily swing up by your place 45 2.1 and then you and "a lot of people around where I live can show me all that HV cast bullet shooting at 500 - 800 yards? I'd settle for a couple 10 shot groups over the chronograph at 100 and 200 yards though.

I'm up for it, how about you two?

Larry Gibson

BTW on another thread Nobade and a couple others do the same as I with slower twist 30-06 barrels of 14"; that is to shoot regular cast bullets accurately at high velocity. Not hard to do at all.

[onceabull]

Now that "Bullshop" has been put in play on this thread, he has posted for sale in the recent past on GunBroker his Saboted 53 gr 22 cal.boolits,with targets and load data in which a pretty fine group was fired at 100 Yd.with chrono,reading above 3900 fps.(I don't recall whether he shot with a 308 or 30/06,but I think the photo annotations tell that..I'm betting those were real groups,not the sort repetitively shown us by the great one (starmetal)...Onceabull

[dtknowles]

Now that "Bullshop" has been put in play on this thread, he has posted for sale in the recent past on GunBroker his Saboted 53 gr 22 cal.boolits,with targets and load data in which a pretty fine group was fired at 100 Yd.with chrono,reading above 3900 fps.(I don't recall whether he shot with a 308 or 30/06,but I think the photo annotations tell that..I'm betting those were real groups,not the sort repetitively shown us by the great one (starmetal)...Onceabull

It sort of would have been nice if this was the first response to my OP. So yes, someone else has tried something similar and has produced higher velocity and better accuracy. I found the auction and he also makes claims about the right bullet and careful seating in the sabot. The auction claims the target was shot with a 30-06

Tim

[onceabull]

dtknowles: Tim, Dan C.(Bullshop) likely has data & experience for other 30 cal.cartridegs with those,& has always in the past(12-15 years) been quick to share by e-mail..I held up responding to your post because I could see on reason to throw cold water at what you've done already,and don't ordinarily carry water for any commercial vendor unless it has been earned twice over. Onceabull

[dtknowles]

.............It doesn't take a "ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type " scope either.......... Won't see any of them using a "ballitic-plex" for aiming..........you also won't see many snipers use mildots for precision shooting, they reach up and turn the elevation knob to the range; that's what it's there for and it is far more precise at longer ranges, even "unknown ranges" than using guestimated hold over which is what using the ballitic-plex reticle is.......

Larry Gibson

Larry

I know that the above was not directed at me but I do want to clarify my statement about mildot scopes. I expect that you understood my point but still allow me to say it again. I was defending the desire for higher velocity as beneficial in shooting at unknown ranges but acknowledgeing that with todays optics we have better estimates for ranges so the uncertainty of unknown ranges is less so flatter trajectory is less of a priority. The combination of flatter trajectory and better range estimates, should lead to more hits.

Shooting at known ranges is a different game and yes I am a turn the elevation knob shooter. I was also a you have to sight-in at the different ranges and count the clicks and write that down shooter. You can't just use a ballistics table and expect to be more than just sort of close.

Tim

I was not talking about the longer ranges that your discussion references, I would use something else if I was shooting at more than 300 yards and unless I can improve the accuracy I would not consider this load for a 300 yard shot even on paper.

[onceabull]

dtknowles: Tim, Dan C.(Bullshop) likely has data & experience for other 30 cal.cartridegs with those,& has always in the past(12-15 years) been quick to share by e-mail..I held up responding to your post because I could see on reason to throw cold water at what you've done already,and don't ordinarily carry water for any commercial vendor unless it has been earned twice over. Onceabull

[45 2.1]

We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

That's pretty awesome 45 2.1.....not zeroed at any one distance and you are accurate at 500 - 800 yards and "unknown ranges".....just plumb amazing.......That's some "skill" alright. Bet the military sniper schools are beating down your door for you to teach them that "secret".

You are quite the card Larry, and your lack of comprehension is astounding. You need to read the above till you understand it. There is quite a difference in meaning between the words "the" and "any" in the context of the above statements.

[Larry Gibson]

QUOTE=dtknowles;2556970]Larry

I know that the above was not directed at me but I do want to clarify my statement about mildot scopes. I expect that you understood my point but still allow me to say it again. I was defending the desire for higher velocity as beneficial in shooting at unknown ranges but acknowledgeing that with todays optics we have better estimates for ranges so the uncertainty of unknown ranges is less so flatter trajectory is less of a priority. The combination of flatter trajectory and better range estimates, should lead to more hits.

Shooting at known ranges is a different game and yes I am a turn the elevation knob shooter. I was also a you have to sight-in at the different ranges and count the clicks and write that down shooter. You can't just use a ballistics table and expect to be more than just sort of close.......[/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct and I agree 100%. We are definitely singing of the same page of this hymn book. And no, my comments were not directed to you at all. Interestingly, in the 30x57 thread, my intention is to have goodsteel barrel a nice old M98 action with a 26 barrel having a 16" twist. I expect to get very good usable accuracy at 2700 - 2800+ fps with the LBT 150 SP or the 311466 using that cartridge. My use for it will be rock chucks, coyote and antelope out to 400+ yards. The combination of a know zero, a scope with repeatable elevation adjustment and range finders does lead to more hits, especially 1st shot hits.

Thanks for the enjoyable discussion.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

You are quite the card Larry, and your lack of comprehension is astounding. You need to read the above till you understand it. There is quite a difference in meaning between the words "the" and "any" in the context of the above statements.

Yup, sure does depend on what the definition of "is" is...........perhaps you studied English in England with Bill?

Would be better if we got some concrete cast bullet information out of you that is pertinent to this thread. Perhaps you'll tell us the EXACT rifle(s)/scope/loads you use for such along with the chronographed velocity of said load(s)
? Maybe even post some groups (preferably 10 shot but 5 would be better than the usual nothing) you've shot with such at 100 and 200 yards or maybe even 500 - 800 yards? A contribution would be much appreciated by everyone.

Larry Gibson

[jimwill48]

Where do you buy the Sabot's? I have not seen them for sale and are they available in other calibers than .30, such as .270, 7mm?

[swheeler]

Where do you buy the Sabot's? I have not seen them for sale and are they available in other calibers than .30, such as .270, 7mm?

The ones I bought were from J&D Components out of Utah(Provo IIRC) Don't know if they are still in business or not that was 20 years ago. I bought their seater tool with the sabots and at that time they offered 22/30 cal, they were a med grey in color.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I think you are right, I should "give it up".....at least with the Palma rifle with 14" twist anyways.

I'm shooting the 311466 at 2600 fps with 1 1/2 moa accuracy to 300 yards (haven't tested it farther yet is all). And today I shot this 10 shot group with a NOW 311465 cast of just plain old linotype with 20 % lead added and AC'd & aged 10 days. Plain old NRA 50/50 lube and sized at a generic .311 and GC'd with Hornady GCs. No weight sorting just a good visual inspection for any flaw.

The 10 shots goes into 1.9" at 100 yards but then that is a sufficient sample size to base realistic accuracy on. I suppose had I just selected 3 shots and they happened to be that 3 shot cluster (that would be "random selection" of an insufficient sample from a lot) I could really write home to you, 45 2.1 and an unmentionable.......

Would that "random selection" have just been luck? Look close and you will see there are 7 such 3 shot groups that are sub moa. There are also five shot groups that are moa or better. Not "luck" at all, the odds are there. That's why we need to shoot groups of sufficient sample size.

Probably time to quit working up HV accurate loads as I already have them. Time to load some up and go shooting. Note also the 7 centered shots clustered 2" high (POA was bottom of the diamond) are in 1.2". So I'm going to head your advise and "give it up" and go kill some rocks way out yonder.........

Larry Gibson

Oh!!! I almost forgot to mention (how silly of me; the velocity was 2754 fps at 15' from the muzzle. Can you show us anything with that accuracy using regular cast bullets at that velocity out of any of your 10" twist 30-30s, .308s, the 30x57 or 30-06s?

Larry Gibson

Attachment 92585

[swheeler]

2754 fps , not bad. You could cut those 3 touching out with scissors and post as a 10 shot group, oops wrong state Very good Larry, carry on.