Strange problem encountered with PD'd bullets

[castalott]

Ok..Some questions... Are these abrasives in the paint we use also? Has anyone anywhere using paint noted this wear? I remember reading of tests by the U S Army years ago that said it took 10,000 rounds of 30-06 to make a service rifle unserviceable because of wear affecting accuracy. ( They used a 6 MOA figure for disqualification.)

These 9mm boolits would have to be very abrasive to do this damage in the pictures.

Surely this abrasive would at least scratch the sizer die enough to be apparant in close inspection. Right now I have more questions than answers.

[dverna]

Castalott,

There have not been enough rounds fired in rifles to answer your question. In fact, there are only one or two people who have achieved 2 MOA with PC'ed bullets at rifle velocities. So the jury is still out on this.

Most PC'ers are doing pistol bullets. The few who have done rifle bullets report no leading but poor accuracy and it has got too cold for many to do more experimenting. So the questions remain.

It will be interesting to see how Pc'ed bullets perform accuracy wise in a 5.56 AR with velocities in the 3000 fps area. One member here got over 3000 fps but he has not posted any further follow up that I am aware of. But like others, his accuracy was not very good but he did not get leading.

Don Verna

[Mbedwell1971]

So I shot both the gloss red and matte black 9mm today. They were identical loads. The matte black was consistently 25fps slower than the gloss red. I'm not sure if that tells us anything significant about the abrasive characteristics of the matte black. Opinions?

[Kristofer_G]

Hello all, I have encountered a problem that I have not heard of anyone else experiencing. I have been shooting PC'd bullets for about 2.5 months, and have had great results with them in several competitions so far. I am shooting them from a G19 with a lone wolf barrel. The problem I have encountered is that the rifling just after my chamber seems to be eroding. At first I thought this was just a large amount of freebore that I hadn't noticed yet in any of my previous cleaning sessions, but after several other shooting and cleaning sessions, it appears that the rifling has eroded more. I have a few pictures of what Im talking about. I have compared my barrel to several other glock barrels, and mine really does appear to have eroded a lot. On my last range session, last week, I noticed that a few rounds had started keyholing, this is something that I have not had happen to me yet with my loads in any of my 9mm pistols. I haven't noticed any rifling erosion in any of my other 9mm's, but admittedly I shoot my Glock A LOT more. I am not ready to say that the PC'd bullets have caused this or not, but I wanted to know if anyone else had experienced anything similar to this in any pistol EVER. Any help with this would be appreciated.

Attachment 90193 This is a picture from the chamber looking out to the Muzzle. You can see that after the end of the chamber that the case mouth indexes on, there is a very LARGE amount of freebore before the bullet starts to make contact with the rifling.

Attachment 90194 This is a picture from the Muzzle looking in toward the chamber. The erosion can be seen here too.

Have you contacted Lone Wolf about your barrel?

[popper]

The few who have done rifle bullets report no leading but poor accuracy Not exactly true. Seems more like a reloader/shooter limit. No, it won't let you shoot pure @ 3000 fps & MOA.

[Smoke4320]

can't say I have shot thousands of rds of PCed rifle bullets .. can say I have gotten SUB MOA on
300 Blkout, 6.5 x 55, 308, 458 socom and 45-70 .. all at least 75% of full power jacketed loads
my method was to find a good accurate load for hunting season this year in each rifle .. which I did.. and after this season start laddering those loads up to see how hi I can get before accuracy degrades one rifle at a time..
harvested one deer each with 458 socom and 300 blkout .. both were clean thru both sides at 65-67 yds
458 socom was RCBS 300 98/2 at 1583 FPS and 300 Blkout Mil hec 159FN at 1500 FPS 10" barrel and suppressor
so far I am extremely pleased with the results see no wear or leading with any of my loads

[Mbedwell1971]

What mold did you use for your .308? That is my next casting project. I am interested in what has worked for you.

[popper]

31-165B - works well in my AR & 30/30. Small FP, not a sharp point, not very long.

[Smoke4320]

Mbedwell1971
my most accurate so far has been the Mil Hec 159 in both FN and HP .. tried RCBS 165 did well.. lees 230 is awesome in sub sonic loads pc'ed and sized to 311.. I size all my 308's to 311 and they have worked great in all my 308 dia rifles..
tried the Lee 312-155 and have not been successful yet in the blkout or 308
\
PS I do NOT use gas checks .. I powdercoat nose down so I get coated based.. So far that has worked up to loads running almost 2000 FPS .. no leading in a 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser

[Boarderguy83]

Kristofer G, no I have not contacted lone wolf as of yet, because their website states that any reloads shot through their barrels will void the warranty. I dont think I could explain the problem to them in any way that wouldn't make it seem as if it were my fault in their eyes.

John

[nighthunter]

I've sized about 5000 powder coated bullets thru my .309 sizing die and I found yesterday that my bullets are now being sized at .310. I know I'm going to size some uncoated bullets with the die and see how they end up measuring. I was thinking that maybe the PC might swell a little after being compressed in the die. I'll let ya'll know what I figure out.

Nighthunter

[MacFan]

I've sized about 5000 powder coated bullets thru my .309 sizing die and I found yesterday that my bullets are now being sized at .310. I know I'm going to size some uncoated bullets with the die and see how they end up measuring. I was thinking that maybe the PC might swell a little after being compressed in the die. I'll let ya'll know what I figure out.

Nighthunter

With polyester PC I get 1/2 thou to a thou larger than my sizing die. My 7.62 die is .3135 and I get .314 to .3145 over the PC. I suspect it's from the PC displacing out of the way when it goes through the die and then springing back a bit. The heavier the coat the larger the final size.
With 45acp I see about the same results.
Polyester PC is obviously pretty flexible so I don't worry about it.

[Maximumbob54]

Kristofer G, no I have not contacted lone wolf as of yet, because their website states that any reloads shot through their barrels will void the warranty. I dont think I could explain the problem to them in any way that wouldn't make it seem as if it were my fault in their eyes.

John

You could just ask if there have been any reports of problems with whatever lot and batch number your barrel came from.

[Beetmagnet]

So I shot both the gloss red and matte black 9mm today. They were identical loads. The matte black was consistently 25fps slower than the gloss red. I'm not sure if that tells us anything significant about the abrasive characteristics of the matte black. Opinions?

I tested Identical 9mm 133gr loads using Black HF, White HF and plain COWW tumble lubed. The white 10 shot average was 995fps, the black HF was 999fps, and the TL was 1013fps. I haven't noticed any difference between the black, white, and red HF powders, but all are slower than lubed bullets.

[Maximumbob54]

I'm too big a chicken to use the matte black now. But now that I'm ES coating with the gloss red you will have to club me over the head to change to anything else.

[fcvan]

I've been following the 'flat black = increased wear" issue closely as HF flat black is all I use. I have not noticed any appreciable wear on my weapons. I am considering making a slight adjustment to my powder just to check the outcome. We all know that flat black is not as smooth as red yellow or white. Heck, one guy has used clear and they look slick. I'm thinking of mixing some white with the flat black, in increments, to see how much it takes to make the finish on the boolit slightly smoother.

I'm going to try 90/10 black/white, 80/20, 70/30, etc. I am hoping that 80/20 will be the trick as mixing 4lbs of black with 1lb of white will be easy and repeatable. I am also hoping for a dark charcoal grey color because I really like the dark boolit. Call me odd, but lead is already grey ish and I'd like my boolits to be noticeably different. I really like black boolits in shiny brass! Oh ya, I'm a cheap bugger and want to stick with HF powder.

[oldpapps]

If a 'no knowledge' beginner may offer a thought....'flat black = increased wear" issue.

So far I have only bought some 'flat black' powder from PBTP and this was before seeing or reading anything about the issue. I have only played with the powder a little, the cold keeps me inside and my daughter complains about every little smell.

I see controversy about rapid barrel wear with certain powders.
Yet, I haven't seen, granted I haven't looked, anything about the use of 'aluminum can - gas checks'. There is very little aluminum oxide conning in contact with the barrel but how much abrasives are present in what I feel as a smooth powder coating?

I am concerned about the base content of the powders I will purchase from now on. I will shy away from any that could be gritty, but I don't see this as a game changer and find the potentials for the process far over shadow a few draw backs.

I wonder if the shooters in the time when 'jackets' were being introduced had the same worry? Yes, they must have. The steel in that old Trapdoor was very soft....

Thank you for your time. Sorry I didn't have any incite or test results to contribute.

Load with care,

OSOK

[OuchHot!]

I have not done a search, but I would be surprised if there was not some source of powder specifically engineered for friction control. So far, it looks like all of the boolit work has been with appearance grade powders.

[Cane_man]

there are powders that have teflon in them, but i would not want it to be construed as a type of 'armour piercing' bullet

[rsoper]

Plus, the gas is hottest, most compressed near the chamber. As gases expand they cool. So the further the gas expands down the barrel the cooler it gets.

the bullet is moving slowest and so dwells longest there with a 30,000psi 5000 degree f blow torch at mach 50?(don't forget bernoulli)