How consistent are you REALY???

[dtknowles]

That is an excellent curve there Tim. Just cause it's not curvy, doesn't mean it's not a curve ya know?.......I'm not done with this test by a long shot. This is good stuff!

Oh, BTW, Here's the lineup:
Attachment 91585

I might weigh some more but not so much as I don't have an accurate enough digital scale and using the beam balance is very slow.

I think it is an indication of greater consistency if the curve is peaky and not so much bell shaped as the standard deviation will be smaller. The SD for this sample was 0.21 gr. and the extreme spread was 1.0 gr.

I can use my digital scale to screen for low weight bullets as once it warms up it is repeatable it just only has a resolution of a few tenths of a grain. I think that would shrink groups a little as it will cut the flyers due to voids that make out of balance bullets. It is the low weight bullets that bother me.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

I couldn't hep m'self! I had to give it one more shot tonight.
I was thinking that I started this journey casting at 700* and the results were dismal.
I then went to 725* for several tests
Then, earlier today I went to 790* and it seemed that I had crossed over the effective temperature range of this alloy with this mold.
I was thinking that I needed to hit it somewhere in between 790* and 725*, so I set the pot at 740* and started casting while I was on the phone with sgt. mike (it was a joint casting operation from afar LOL!). I just kept an even pace and enjoyed myself.
The result was pretty solid I thought.
Attachment 91606

[cbrick]

Just to let people know, Joe's input in any way, shape or form are not to be posted here. There is a reason he was banned from here twice, and will not be allowed to cause trouble from afar.

That includes inflammatory references to him. When a member is banned, they are out. Taking cheap shots at a banned member is as inflammatory as posting their comments for them. Neither will be tolerated.

Huh? I've read this entire thread, much of it a couple or three times. I didn't see any reference to Joe, how did this crop into this thread and what did/does he have to do with it?

Rick

[btroj]

It has been edited out. I found it to be but a minor annoyance but I'm not a mod.

[SciFiJim]

Welllll my casting did not go so well, I must add a blooming rest and buy a thermometer or switch over to the Lee drip o'matic I did not weigh the pressure casted one yet but here is the photos of the 1/2" drop. Attempting to use the same method of priming not priming that Goodsteel was using prior to filling the cavities The mold was the NOE 452-200gr Brass RG2 that was on the GB on here.

Attachment 91617
Attachment 91618

Really not disappointed with my results just need to work on my method a bit to get the results I would like. I would Like to point out that none of the boolits was harmed in any way during the pictures of this and they will be officially retired to the Goodsteel 45 ACP retirement home

P.S. I post the results on the pressure cast tomorrow

One of the things that may be a factor for you, it the fact that you are casting with a RG mold with the flat point pins in. I have noticed that there is some play in where the flat point pins come to rest and that affects the nose of the boolit. Some come out flat and some come out with a small depression. Looking at the nose of your boolits, I see that it had some play there as well. That probably had something to do with the spread of weights.

[MBTcustom]

When you get done with this test you will have to investigate why you get more consistent boolits when you are hopped up on caffeine and your hands are shaky.....oh wait maybe I should do that one. .....actually I sit my mould in front of a high speed fan that imparts some subtle vibration to the table while the sprue sets and as long as I sit the mould on the clay floor tile sitting in front of the fan everytime all is good. If I happen to NOT sit the mould down on the clay tile while the sprue is "galvanizing over" the boolit will almost always come out a 1/2 grain lighter. There is some good to be had from consistent vibration....I think that motion/vibration is why Dillon progressive powder measures are so accurate too, but have never investigated the phenomena.

All the little consistent inconsistencies add up.....looking at your boolit graph you are doing something subtly different on some of the casts......pot intricacy/cadence/tempo/galvanizing time/cooling time all need to be as close to the same as we humans can get them.......to be dead honest you are getting better more consistent results than I ever did with a casting pot with a hole in the bottom of it. I simply did not make a good bottom sucker apparently.

Merry Christmas

I was thinking of going down to a local store (I think they call it cupids or something) and finding something that vibrates to tape to one of the handles of my mold. I really wonder if that would make a difference. I completely agree with you about the Dillon powder measure BTW.

[Down South]

I read a thread here once a year or so ago that a guy had some type of vibrator top that he set his moulds on when pouring.

[country gent]

With the poly urethane at work the vibrration did okay but it toof 24 hours to cure also on lead it may help some but also may numb your hand with longer sessions. Its an Idea another plus to the added vvibration is it may help to seat the mold closed the same everytime. with the name of cupids there may be a vibrator with a band to hold it on the mold handle LOL. Brooks moulds does have a pic of the vented sprue plate he makes under accesories on his web site also. Its only 28 degrees here right now so now casting for me today. I just dont dare to risk the cold for extended periods of time. I normally do most of my casting spring and fall in 35-50 deg temps. Im getting ready and have close to 100 lds in the pot waiting on me.
Goodsteel while you are measuring you consistency agianst all It was my job to make the gages fixtures to measure test in the industry also. Im interested in reducing the voids and hidden areas as they will cause more issues than anything vibration may be a step in the right direction. Possibly a heat source to maintain a liquid form longer at temp also. I run 700-750 degrees normally. Would be interesting to see the heat ranges thru out the pots from bottom to top. I know heat rises but closer to heat source may be hotter than farther away also. A pot with bands sides may be hotter than middle. May only be a few degrees or it could be more. I use a flame on the bottom that flows around sides in a heat shield so it should be fairly consistent. Also leaving the ladle "float in the mix full maintains its temp better also. I get better boolits with the vented sprues but they allow me to keep bullet hot longer and for the same size sprue everytime. Again a form of consistency. Every step has to be done the same for the same results.

[WILCO]

Interesting, but does the less than 1% difference in weight really make any difference by the time the bullet gets to the target?

Depends on your "Shooting" goals. As we all know, accuracy is really consistency when handloading ammunition. Like you, I'm not at this level of casting or shooting, but it's still great to read of these observations.

Brilliant work Tim. I tip my hat to you.

[WILCO]

Huh? I've read this entire thread, much of it a couple or three times. I didn't see any reference to Joe, how did this crop into this thread and what did/does he have to do with it?

Rick

Joe who? Sorry, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

[Larry Gibson]

That includes inflammatory references to him. When a member is banned, they are out. Taking cheap shots at a banned member is as inflammatory as posting their comments for them. Neither will be tolerated.

No "cheap shot" taken. Simply gave example of what some consider "good cast bullets" and what some of us don't. Thought seeking consistent and the best cast bullets was pertinent to the topic of this thread.

Rest of the original post here deleted.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Joe is just a member whom was banned because of reasons that are best left alone, would be the best way to put it without an attack on him or to drift the thread away from what it's intent is.

To me the thread is more to find your consistency for your method be it bottom pour pot, ladle pour, or cowboy style, not about accuracy on the target I know at 10 yards and below (true combat range engagement) none of the boolits deviations would make a hill of bean difference on target. It's all about finding your best method of casting the best boolit that you can do.
Just my OPINION your mileage /opinion will vary.

Indeed. Mike and I are about to meet later today and I will cast with his mold in the same ways that he has, and we'll see if the results are different. So far, it seems that mike is more consistent with a pressure casting technique. If I take his same mold, and run at the same temperature, but I get better results using my 1/2" drop, sweep under the spout routine, what does that tell us?

I have a very strong suspicion that Doc Highwall nailed it in post #173.

We shall see.

[dtknowles]

I couldn't hep m'self! I had to give it one more shot tonight.
I was thinking that I started this journey casting at 700* and the results were dismal.
I then went to 725* for several tests
Then, earlier today I went to 790* and it seemed that I had crossed over the effective temperature range of this alloy with this mold.
I was thinking that I needed to hit it somewhere in between 790* and 725*, so I set the pot at 740* and started casting while I was on the phone with sgt. mike (it was a joint casting operation from afar LOL!). I just kept an even pace and enjoyed myself.
The result was pretty solid I thought.
Attachment 91606

Tim

That run is awesome, very strong peak (low SD) and low extreme spread. I would discard the top two rows and call that lot prime. Step one for accurate bullets accomplished (assuming appropriate mold and alloy).

I understand not wanting to get bogged down in the "how much better do they shoot" discussion too many other variables.

Again nice work.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

Next time, do like I said and scrub with WD-40 or Kroil first, and then hit it with the sudds. Works every time.

[MBTcustom]

Well I took a ride with Mike's mold tonight.
First curve was shockingly obtuse. Kinda made me look at the mold like: "Seriously?" Something has got to be going on. I suspected the FP pins were to blame, but figured I better give it another go. This mold cannot be used with the shelf on the Lee pot on account of those HP pin hangers.
Here's the first chart. Boolits were cast with a primed spout and about a 1/2" stream:
Attachment 91674
I tried it again. This time, I pressure cast the boolits by priming the stream and then sweeping the mold under the nozzle using the sprue plate to keep it stopped up. As soon as it got into a sprue hole, it was "lights on" for the silver stream.
Here's the graph:
Attachment 91675

Better lookin curve, however still erratic. I noticed that the FP pins left an impression in the meplat of the boolits, and one or two of them were way undersized. I whipped out my depth micrometer and started checking the depth of those impressions. Sure enough, the light ones were significantly deeper than the heavy ones, leading me to believe that those pins were floating around in their holes, creating problems.
So cheer up Mike! You're not such a shaky hand at this as you thought eh?

[GabbyM]

I was thinking of going down to a local store (I think they call it cupids or something) and finding something that vibrates to tape to one of the handles of my mold. I really wonder if that would make a difference. I completely agree with you about the Dillon powder measure BTW.

If a vibrating plate is really what we need. Maybe just set a case tumbler over to the side on your bench and allow it to vibrate the whole bench. Take rubber feet off and screw it down solid on the bench or shelf below if you need more shake? Toss in some brass then kill two birds with one stone. Just a thought.

[HotGuns]

I had a talk with Tim today on the phone and it was then that I learned about this thread. The conversation that we had, intrigued me.

As we know, (most of us anyway) the tight groups that we all like to shoot come from eliminating the variables. Just as a good shooting gun is improved not so much be getting rid of one variable, but a combination of variables, I could easily correlate the same idea to cast bullets although I'll admit, until today I never gave it just a whole lot of thought.

I've been casting for over 30 years and always had excellent results, but in the never ending quest for perfection, I am always willing to learn anything that might cut my group size.

With that being said, I have always approached my casting more from the aspects of bench rest, target grade shooting and always endeavored to get the smallest groups that I was capable of. To me, its not much difference than fine tuning a mediocre gun and making it shoot groups that would have most people in amazement.

This thread has inspired me to try some of the things mentioned. Although I do shoot a large volume of cast bullets in handguns where 25 or 50 yards is about it for the range, I can see where long range shooting might actually benefit from some of the practices here.

So, I intend to do just what Tim did and see if I can improve. What the heck...it never hurts to try and it might actually be fun. If I actually see an improvement in what I'm doing, it'll be well worth the effort. That's what I love about this forum. It seems like there is always someone coming up with some good ideas and an opportunity to improve. I really like that.

[onehousecat]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how? I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Not real judgmental are you? (sarcasm, in case you missed it) If shooting paper yields consistent groups that are of comparable size between bullets of >.3 grs variance and those of <.3 grs variance, are the ones with the higher weight variance inferior? If so, how? I take serious issue with the "slob" characterization. I have more than a bit of OCD, so uniformity means a great deal to me. In order to conduct my life in a reasonable fashion, I control things to the limit of my abilities. When things reach a point of NO MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE in the end result of my actions, I let it go. You might want to buy a dictionary, look up the word "class", and then reread your post.

[pls1911]

When I was shooting silhouette, I'd put many pounds of bullets in a session, working half an hour to get three molds up to temp at the same time...then production run was started the bullets cst were RCBS 165-SIL.
All sprue cuts and cull bullets are returned to the pot and 1-2 pounds hot ingot when it's about 1/3 empty; all molds are left filled when ever VERY short break is needed to add a lead clean up or flux.
When running molds, consistent CADENCE is absolutely required to achieve consistent bullet weights. Maintaining consistency in all variables of pot temp, mold temp, pour technique, timing, recharge technique all influence bullet weight.
I also runout a squirt of lead into a stainless bowl inder the spout before filling the mold.. every time. This avoids the "first bullet-cool alloy" issue.
In a single pot without any recharge you expect a bell curve distribution of bullet weights, that higher variations (rejects ) at start up, the the gretset consistency after everything is up to temp and running good...untill your pot gets low or or mold over heated, then variations and rejects again grow.
Similar to the origenal poster's efforts, after a casting session, I weight segregated 600 bullets +/- 1/2 grain which had been placed IN ORDER OF CASTING on the and culled as cast for obvious rejects. The results were noted in an excel spread sheet and graphed.
As expected, the consistency increased over time, and after an iniitial whenever there's a break in cadencexperiod of settling into a constant cadence and continued as long as I could physically keep it up. SMALL sine waves of variance were noted whenever I had to break for a moment to clean up add sprues and heated ingots, etc. When casting resumed, after a few throws, all was good again untill the next break. The message is that any break in cadence is manifested in bullet weight variance.
The final results were the 40% of bullets fell into +/- 1 grain, 90% were +/- 2 grains and the remaining 10% (60 or so bullets) were the oddities we see from strange variations light and heavy... remelt fodder.
Within these high level sorts we noted the variability relative to the order cast... and sure enough whenever we had a break in cadence, the variables stood out clearly... not bad mind you, but notable.

Our casting set up is carefully planned and laid out like a factory work station so it's much easier to maintain consistence in motion.
I'd love to share the data file....If only I could find it....

[popper]

any break in cadence is manifested in bullet weight variance. - good point, I need to check this out. Easy to do as I drop on a towel. As an older gent I do know my cadence changes when the arm gets tired. I will check that also, for rifle only as I can't shoot long range pistol - if they do the job @ 10 I'm OK.
I have found that oven HT/WD makes more consistent shooting boolits. Broke a lot in half, there is a definite 'ring' with different granular structure that is off center for AC or WD, centered for oven treated.
Good thread Tim - lots to learn.