Which would you go with? 1:48" or 1:60"? For round ball?

[Dthunter]

Hi guys!

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?
I know the theories state that a slower twist is supposed to be better for a round ball.

The T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate.

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.

Is there a great difference in potential accuracy, or is it more "theoretical" at best?

I tend to push accuracy as much as possible. Its my nature I guess. I would like to get sub 2" groups at 100 regularily or better.

I like the thoughts of the Hawken twist rate being suitable for conicals as well, but I have inline muzzleloaders I normally use for those bullets. Whats your thoughts on this?

I have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for more than 20 years, but havent explored the round ball shooters yet. I think it could be fun.

Thankyou for your input guys!

[johnson1942]

the deer creek, i think that was their name, made .50/s in 1/60 twist and they would take any charge and always cut center at 100 yards. i had 3 of them. he told me by phone it was the best twist for the .50. i found the 1/72 twist for .50/s worked well but harder to find the right load. ive beem told by eastern us shooters that 1/56 works very well for .50/s. if your talking .45 1/48 to 1/56 or 60 works well. the .45 seems easier to work up a load on. .58 works very well with 1/72. 66 works for the .54.if you want a custom barrel made reasonable and done right give the oregon barrel co. a try. they made a .50 in 1/28 for me that i shoot a cast bullet in 36 inches long. and when you tell them .50 thats what it came out right on .50. at first i was unsure of their leaded steel barrels but the gun is so reliably accurate im sold on their barrels. good luck in your quest and choose carefully and have fun.

[GARD72977]

I am no expert by any means but from my research the slower the twist the more powder it takes to get accuracy. Im not sure if one tiwst is more accurate than another but if you are wanting power for hunting or knocking down steel targets then the slower twist should be flatter and have more knockdown with the most accurate load.

[SamTexas49]

Either twist will work, more can depend on the depth of the rifling to better grab the patch material.

[mooman76]

If you think you might want to shoot conicals, go with 1/48 but if you know you want RBs only go with the 1/60. 1/48 will do both but it's more or less a compromise. won't shoot either best but will shoot both reasonably well or as good as most can shoot anyway.

[Anonym]

Mooman said it. The 1:60 will really shoot the roundballs best, but may not stabilize a heavier conical. The 1:48 was a compromise and will shoot both okay, but aren't necessarily the best for either.

My slow twist 50 cal Green Mountain LOVES roundball. Never tried conicals yet. My slow twist 54 cal Sharon also LOVES roundball, but is no slouch with maxiballs either. I would go slow for the best roundball and see which conical works as well. Might have to go with a l8ghter conical, but worth it if it's primarily a roundball shooter.

[waksupi]

1-60, and 1-66 are my preferred round ball twists.

[Rattus58]

Hi guys!

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?
I know the theories state that a slower twist is supposed to be better for a round ball.

The T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate.

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.

Is there a great difference in potential accuracy, or is it more "theoretical" at best?

I tend to push accuracy as much as possible. Its my nature I guess. I would like to get sub 2" groups at 100 regularily or better.

I like the thoughts of the Hawken twist rate being suitable for conicals as well, but I have inline muzzleloaders I normally use for those bullets. Whats your thoughts on this?

I have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for more than 20 years, but havent explored the round ball shooters yet. I think it could be fun.

Thankyou for your input guys!

I'm finding that 1-70 twist is much more accurate than 1-48 in my 58's especially. Smaller diameter bore I think that 1-48 might work and especially with shorter barrels in all cases that I have experienced. I can suggest that if you are going to use a round ball, you use an over powder wad before loading the patched ball if you want absolute accuracy all the time...

[Whiterabbit]

the slower the better, for me. I want to hunt wit mine, so the more velocity I need to find the sweet spot, the better!

[357mags]

I've got an old Renegade 54cal, 1:48"twist that loves round ball!

[johnson1942]

rattus 58: what kind of wad are talking about because i want to try it. felt or fiber or poly? i have a good rounball .45 but you may even emprove it. please reply, thanks beforehand.

[Rattus58]

rattus 58: what kind of wad are talking about because i want to try it. felt or fiber or poly? i have a good rounball .45 but you may even emprove it. please reply, thanks beforehand.

I use felt wads for my roundballs now but I've used or started with walters card wads that I use with my conicals. It's probably just my imagination working overtime, but I believe a felt wad better than the hard card wad with the round ball. Accuracy dramatically improved with my 58 caliber Investarms when I started using over powder wads at the suggestion of some old geezer who was watching me shoot one day while I was having problems with loads.

[johnson1942]

thanks, i have a good .45 cutter that fits my swageing press. now i have to find some right diam. felt. thanks again

[Rattus58]

thanks, i have a good .45 cutter that fits my swageing press. now i have to find some right diam. felt. thanks again

I be thinking you have the diameter with the cutter... I'm thinking about getting a cutter for my 41, 54, and 58's. I need to learn a little more about felt... you can find it all over the place...

[fouronesix]

The twist rate for PRB is truly a $64k question. If you think about it, a more or less perfect sphere really can't go aerodynamically unstable. I think the idea with them is shot to shot consistency. As they leave the muzzle they need to have a little bit of spin to maintain the shot to shot consistency of flight and ideally that spin is plumb the axis of flight. Volumes have been written and 1000s of hours spent discussing the subject.

My theory about PRBs is that spin rate has less to do with accuracy while shot to shot internal ballistic consistency has more to do with it. Patch tears or leaks differently shot to shot, faster twist rifling may put more stress on the patch thus leading to inconsistency of patch performance, groove depth may play a role, number of grooves may play a role and so on.

That doesn't mean that a faster than "normal" twist can't shoot PRBs accurately or that shallow grooved bores can't shoot accurately. Some of the best PRB groups I've ever shot with a 45 cal ML have been out of a 48" twist bore. But I have shot some cruddy groups also. The faster than "normal" twist may require EVERYTHING be just right. Some of the best PRB groups I've ever shot in a 54 cal ML with a 66" twist have been out of a fairly shallow groove bore. But I've never shot really cruddy groups out of the shallow groove 66" twist bore. Maybe that indicates the slower twist is a little less critical for slight load variations or variations in fouling, in other words a little more forgiving.

One other generality I've found (and it may be just that, an unsubstantiated generality) is that within a reasonable range, the more grooves the better for accuracy or at least fairly predictable and good accuracy- with 5,6,7 or 8 grooves working better than 3 or 4 grooves in all calibers from 45 through 58. Not sure exactly why that is.

And my "Unified Theory of PRB Relativity" would go something like:
If you want to shoot long shot strings with reasonable accuracy without cleaning after every shot- go with a slightly slower twist and a slightly looser bore fit. For ultimate accuracy- go with a slightly faster twist, clean between shots, use a tighter fit that may require a short starter and maybe even add an overpowder felt wad.

Hah, if it were only that simple!

[johnson1942]

the very best grouping shot after shot roundball gun was one i cleaned up and made look nice belonged to a dad of a friend of mine. it was a cabellas thompson half stock copy. it was .45 cal and i wish i knew the twist. it had grooves only about 4 thousands deep and get this 12 lands and grooves equal space, same width for lands and groove. i just used a pillow ticking patch and .445 roundball. back then it was pyrodox. at 100 yards it was one tight group with no flyers. by the way does any one know a barrel maker who does 12 lands and 12 grooves? ive always wanted to make a barrel like that, could never find any one to do it. their was a johnson barrel co. 25 years ago and he told me he made 2 barrels for a muzzle loader shooter that had 40 lands and grooves about 3 thousands deep and he said the shooter told him it was very accurate. he closed his doors years ago and went to work for a custom rifle make in rapid city. has any one else had experience with a 12 groove barrel? thanks before hand. oh yes i dont remember the name of the manufacture on the gun. i just know it came from cabellas and looked like a thompson.

[waksupi]

the slower the better, for me. I want to hunt wit mine, so the more velocity I need to find the sweet spot, the better!

Man, do I have a rifle you need to own. 1-120 Forsyth rifling. Takes around 130 gr. 3F to make it start to perform, and is the best long range RB rifle I have. Problem is, I just don't care for this particular rifle!

[StrawHat]

Man, do I have a rifle you need to own. 1-120 Forsyth rifling. Takes around 130 gr. 3F to make it start to perform, and is the best long range RB rifle I have. Problem is, I just don't care for this particular rifle!

I have a 45 caliber barrel that is rifled 1 turn in 120 inches. Im getting the necessary parts to build an English Sporting Rifle. The research I have done indicates loads between 120 and 200 grains of powder for the patched round ball.

The English have used slow twist barrel for Express type rifles for many years. It seems they wanted to extend the point blank range of their hunting rifles during the percussion era.

[Pb2au]

I own a Lyman Great Plains in 50, with the 1/60 twist and will testify to its accuracy with a patched round ball. There is a great amount of value for the price in that rifle.
It is always amusing to out shoot the commandos at the range with "LRP" bolt guns.
Plus it looks quite nice to boot.

[Hanshi]

Definitely for .50 and above the twists slower than 1-48" are to be preferred. 1-60" to 66" or thereabouts does fine. 1-48" usually does too but notice I said "usually". A .45 works well with 1-48" to 1-56" but .40 and below do very well with 1-48" twists. Of course any given barrel can easily prove the exception.