Continuing Saga of Micro-Grooved H&R Handi-Rifle

[Misfire99]

Hi All
I had a post about my Handi-Rifle keyholling at 50 yards. I am still waiting to hear from one of the gunsmiths that might be able to deepen the groves of my rifle. And after doing some research I do believe Marlin dumped it's 45 cal micro groove reject barrels onto H&R. I can't find any 45/70 Marlin rifles that now have micro grooves. I still haven't had a sit down with H&R but I'm not holding my breath. I think they are going to shaft me.

There are not many options open to me at this time. Jacketed bullets are very expensive. As much as $77 for 25 to a low of $20 for 100. So if I am going to shoot jacketed guess which one it will be. But even the cheap jacketed bullet has problems. It is a Remington 405 grain Soft Point bullet. It has two cannelures neither of is good for crimping the brass. To get the brass to crimp in the first groove I either have to trim the brass or throat the chamber. And as luck would have it I have a 45 caliber throating reamer. But if I do this I am sort of making the chamber so it will shoot the Remington Bullet primarily. The advantage of throating is I will be able to set the bullet further out of the case giving more powder space. This would allow the use of more of the slower powders, such as 5010.

So if you were in this fix and had a reamer would you ream the chamber for the Remington Bullet? The Remington Jacketed comes out to about 20 Cents each. That's pretty cheap even for a cast bullet. And they have very good reviews as a hunting bullet. One reviewer said he shot a deer in the shoulder and it blew some of it's bones out of the opposite shoulder.

I'm leaning towards reaming the thing but if anybody has a reason why I shouldn't I really want to hear it before I ream it.

[Bass Ackward]

So if you were in this fix and had a reamer would you ream the chamber for the Remington Bullet? The Remington Jacketed comes out to about 20 Cents each. That's pretty cheap even for a cast bullet. And they have very good reviews as a hunting bullet. One reviewer said he shot a deer in the shoulder and it blew some of it's bones out of the opposite shoulder.

I'm leaning towards reaming the thing but if anybody has a reason why I shouldn't I really want to hear it before I ream it.

Misfire,

Advice all depends on what you have ear marked for this project. If you are totally disappointed and this is to be an education, then this can make sense. If this is all to improve the gun for keeping and later use, then you could be disappointed. Think 50 times, cut once.

Renting a throater is a cheap trial. But at what diameter? I would want the ball seat no bigger than .457 if you are going to continue to shoot hard with that bore diameter. IF you cut say, .460 and need .457 diameter bullets, you are going to be no closer to accuracy than you are right now. And if you have the grooves opened later, then you may need to rent a throater again to keep the same throat / bore relationship.

I would try to get hold of a .454 sizer first and repeat the simple tests. You can bump the lands for guidance. You can use that sizer to size down your copper too. See if the gun quits key holing and what you can begin to expect from it before you put more money and time in it. This may not be accurate, but it if continues to keyhole, it will tell you that you may have more going on here.

From the supportive side, if you have gone over this in your mind to your satisfaction, you sound confident enough to tackle the project, I say go for it.

[Bret4207]

Are you going to use it for cast or jacketed or both? I've looked at jacketed prices for my 45/70 and cent's see where I'm going to be using them at that cost. A cast 45/70 boolit will do anything a jacketed will, at the same ranges and speeds. You just have to find the right combination. There are a bunch of guys shooting the 45/70 MArlins here, Micro-groove and Ballard. Look around a bit.

[VTDW]

Bret is right!! I shoot the .444 Microgrooves exclusively. In fact I sold a beautiful .444 in Ballard to buy another .444 in Microgroove. Conventional wisdom with Microgrooves is to push the boolits hard. Works for me.

Dave

[DonH]

Does one need to crimp .45-70 cases to be fired in a single shot? I don't but mine is loaded to BP pressure levels. I understand the likely necessity in lever gun.

[Lead melter]

I can't help with the keyhole problem, but I can advise on the crimp issue. Lee makes a Factory Crimp die in 45/70 that will let you crimp the brass super firmly on the jacket of that Remington bullet. The thing costs about $12 at Midway or Midsouth and is a superb investment. By the way, my H&R shoots that bullet 3 inside an inch at 100 paces with 31 grains AA-5744.

[Mk42gunner]

Misfire99,

Before reaming your throat I would try two things.

1. Since this is a single shot; try it with no crimp, just remove the belling of the case mouth.

2. Buy a Lee Factory Crimp die. They are $8.49 from Midway, this morning.

Robert

[Dr. A]

Try some .460 sized lead in one of the popular custom casters designs. Beartooth BUllets is famous for sending you the right bullet. I'd try this before any reaming. Poor combinations of lube and bullet hardness have given many a shooter problems in the past. What lead have you shot?

Might try one of these sized .460. Right balance of lube, size and hardness.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

[Leftoverdj]

On the other thread, you indicated .454 groove diameter, which sounds exceeding improbable to me. Assuming that this is correct, the barrel should still shot .457 cast well. Before I'd touch that rifle, I'd try the time proven 13 grains of Unique under a 405 grain bullet cast of air cooled WW. If you get keyholing with that , you've got a real problem.

.45-70 throater reamers ain't real common items to have laying around, although I had a Manson that never came back from a rental deal a couple of years ago.

[jack19512]

[QUOTE=Misfire99;241925] I still haven't had a sit down with H&R but I'm not holding my breath. I think they are going to shaft me.

QUOTE]





Before I would continue to beat myself up over this I would have at least called H&R and got their opinion about what might be going on. Instead of taking the attitude that they are going to shaft you I firmly believe you should at least give someone the chance to try and make it right.

I second the advice about the Lee factory crimp. I use one on my 45/70 and they work great. I don't want to start a "crimp, no crimp" debate but I like at least a little crimp on everything I reload.

[leftiye]

In sniggle shots you can use unsized brass so long as there is enough tension to hold the boolit ("thumb tight"). You can also leave in a slight bell to center the boolit in the chamber (might help, worth a try).

If you throat the barrel, you can make it (freebore) any length you want, including putting the whole bullet in and following it with a case full (or not) of powder. Moderation is suggested, enough freebore to center the boolit AND keep it straight in the bore. If your present bore is lacking a leade (like mine is) I'd start by just cutting a leade and testing that to see how it works.

I'd suspect that H&R would make it right if you contact them. I've found them cordial,and had good dealings with them, though I haven't yet gone to them with a problem. If not, remember that you can buy another barrel fitted to your reciever from H&R cheaper than you can get the rifling cut deeper (and you'd still have micro groove).

[Misfire99]

Thanks all for your help. First off I have the throating reamer for 45 rifle because I also have a Sharps falling block that I shoot Black Powder Cartridge out of. I wanted to shoot a 500 grain Postell and seat it way out of the case with lube grooves exposed. This way I could get more powder in the case. I never got around to throating my Sharps because I got cancer. I am just now, after many years, getting back into shooting.

I do use a Lee crimp die. I think they work great. But if the bullet has a cannelure I would like to use it. And I haven't done a chamber cast but by the way bullets seat in the chamber I think I have little to no throat. Also I use AA5744 at 29.5 grains behind a 500grain bullet. I bought these from Midway on a close out sale. They are Laser-cast. These have to be the hardest cast bullets I have ever seen. I hit it with the file I use to mark a steel rod. When I hit the steel rod with this file I see and can easily feel the groove. When I hit one of the Laser-Cast bullets I can see the cut but can't feel it with my finger nail. These bullets are HARD!! The 29.5 of AA5744 is near, according to the books I have, the upper limit of pressure for this rifle. I have read accounts of Handi-Rifles popping open when there is to high of pressure. This is something I don't want to experience.

When I first posted the size of my bore cast I had just taken it with cerrosafe. When using cerrosafe you have to meassure at thirty minutes from the time you take the cast. This is the time that the contraction of the cerrosafe will be nearest to what it was cast in. I have the cast in my hand now and just measured it again, after many days from the cast, and it comes out to .452 and .457. This gives a groove size of .0025. I'm supprized it shoot jacketed as well as it does.

Before I do anything I will give H&R a chance to set it right. They also make a Buffalo Classic in 45/70 that doesn't have micro-grooves. I would like one of these barrels drilled and tapped for a scope and I will cut it down from 32 inches to maybe 26 inches myself. I have the tooling to cut and recrown barrels.

For you all that shoot cast in micro-grooved barrels. I don't know how you do it. I pushed these 500 grainers as fast as the law allows and it only got worse. When I used the lowest loading I had keyholing but the group size was only a few inches. When I put the pedal to the metal the group opened up to almost eleven inches with one not on the paper. But I will say that one of the fast moving group did cut a nice hole in the paper but all the others keyholed. I suspect that the nice hole is just a fluke with the bullet tumbling and just hit straight on by accident.

I talked to Ken at Classic Barrels Works. He does reboring. He told me that his machine could not pick up the existing grooves but he told me of a guy that did have a machine that could. I am waiting ti hear back from him.

One of the reasons I haven't contacted H&R is I have a sleep disorder. After cancer the drugs I need to take throws off my sleep pattern. I can't fall asleep until five am. So I don't get out of bed until around two or three pm. And I'm not worth much until four or so. H&R is on the east coast and closes at four pm their time. This means I have to be up and operating at three my time. I know this sounds easy but believe me it's not. But I do get a lot of casting and reloading done between the hours of midnight and five am.

Sometimes I lament what the cancer and chemo did to my body. But my daughter just came into my office to ask me a question. We home school and she is studying internal medicine and wanted to know why salt causes your body to swell. Well I have a medical background and could give her the answer. And you know that makes putting up with my pain and problems worth it.

[jack19512]

Misfire99

First off let me say that I wish you the best and hope you do well. I will admit I don't know near as much as most of the guys here. I do have the Buffalo Classic 45/70 and I am really fond of this rifle.

I am doing quite well with my cast in this rifle. I shot the rifle again yesterday at a distance of 65 yards using a 100 yard smallbore rifle target and managed to hit the bullseye area twice and the third round was about an inch under the bullseye. For me this was quite exciting because this is the best I have done so far.

I do know from having had two other H&R rifles and learning from others that know more than myself that sometimes they can be picky and quite frustrating to try and get them to shoot well. I got rid of one of my H&R rifles just because I never could get it to shoot consistently. I do hope you find a solution to your problem.

[Leftoverdj]

When I first posted the size of my bore cast I had just taken it with cerrosafe. When using cerrosafe you have to meassure at thirty minutes from the time you take the cast. This is the time that the contraction of the cerrosafe will be nearest to what it was cast in. I have the cast in my hand now and just measured it again, after many days from the cast, and it comes out to .452 and .457. This gives a groove size of .0025. I'm supprized it shoot jacketed as well as it does.

Before I do anything I will give H&R a chance to set it right. They also make a Buffalo Classic in 45/70 that doesn't have micro-grooves. I would like one of these barrels drilled and tapped for a scope and I will cut it down from 32 inches to maybe 26 inches myself. I have the tooling to cut and recrown barrels.

There is no reason for H&R "to set it right" when there is nothing wrong. Those are absolutely normal specs for microgroove barrels, and dozens of us are shooting barrels with similar dimensions without problem.

Cast bullets are not jacketed bullets. You can't just pull a load out of the air and expect it to shoot. There would be no need for this board were it that simple.

[garandsrus]

Misfire99,

I don't have a 45-70 (yet!) but I believe that your boolits are WAY TOO HARD. Most of what I have read about this caliber says to use a 16-1 to 40-1 Lead to Tin ratio. This would result in a MUCH softer boolit that would expand into the grooves properly when shot.

I would bet that someone that has some 45-70 boolits cast up would send you a dozen to try...

John

[9.3X62AL]

Shallow grooves + over-hard boolits = PITA of the first order. Your land height is half that of my Ruger #1 in 45-70.

I would certainly try some softer boolits before throwing in the towel, and certainly before taking tools to the existing barrel. I know the feeling--I just got thoroughly disgusted today with a Marlin 94 in 25-20 that I foolishly thought was mending its evil ways with castings--Ballard rifling and all. Au contraire. Back to the drawing board. FWIW, my RWS 25 caliber air rifle out-shot the 25-20 today at 25 and at 50 yards.

[Bret4207]

Were it me, I'd see if some of the kind hearted souls here couldn't come up with 25 or 30 suitable boolits cast right, that is much softer than those carbide Lazercast jobs, and see what the rifle does. Those specs sound about normal and it should do much better. I assumed you checked the normal stuff like loose sights, stock bolt, etc. I'd even go so far as to buy a 405 gr Lee mould and scrounge some wheel weights up and cast a few of my own before going to the expense you mentioned. How big are those Lazercast anyway? If they mic .457 or .458 they may well be too small to start with. Those guys cast for folks who have lower expectations than I do do IMO.

[Newtire]

I had nothing but grief using the lasercast bullets in my .444. They leaded like crazy. They were all undersized for one. They are sitting under the bench waiting to be remelted into a suitable alloy.

I know I am the second guy to say this but I'll say it anyway. I don't believe the stuff about how micro-grooves won't shoot lead because I have one and it does exactly that quite nicely. As far as shooting them hard or soft or fast or slow, it doesn't make much difference whether the gun is ballard or micro-groove; the same rules apply. Size of the boolit is it really the only thing I could say would give you trouble. Sounds like you might be wasting your time and money. I shoot anything from a 200 gr. Lee cowboy boolit up to a 300 grain Lee bone cruncher and with the right powder and charge weight, they all shoot remarkably well. Like Bret says, give a few other boolits a try.

[jack19512]

I would be happy to send you some of my cast 340 grain sized to .459 and cast from straight wheel weights if you want them. They are shooting quite well in my Buffalo Classic 45/70. Or, I have some 405 grain cast that I will send you. Or, I will send you some of both.

[Misfire99]

Well I just got off the phone with H&R. At first they said they would do nothing for me. They said that SAAMI specs were .456 for the groove depth. And by the way they assure me this is not a micro-groove barrel but rather has cut rifling. Personally I thought the SAAMI specs were .457 but that's ok. He also said that the tolerance is two thousands of an inch. This puts it done to .454 my barrel mics out to .4545. So I think that the tooling was getting worn when they cut my barrel. At first they were not going to do anything for me. Basically said go away kid you bother me. But I said I was interested in buying more from them and this would hurt our relationship. I asked if they would put another barrel on it. They said they would. I thanked them and said this is all I will ask of them. If the next barrel doesn't work for me I will eat it and just shoot jacketed. I'm not intersted in ripping them off or being a PITA but I would like the thing that I paid for to work properly. So if they do one attempt at getting it right I will accept that.

They also said I have to shoot factory ammo not reloads. I personally think my reloads are better then factory. For a number of reasons. The first is I don't resize my cases so they have the same size as the chamber and I adjust my OAL for the chamber with the bullet I am using.

And for garandsrus. You are correct about using softer alloy. When I shoot black powder cartridge I only use pure lead. And the best in my Sharps is a hollow base. I do have a bunch of these to try and thanks to those that offered other bullets but I have a bunch thanks. But my point is if it only gave me bad groupings I could live with that and get something to shoot right. But no bullet should keyhole at fifty yards at both high and low velocity. This is a problem with the rifle. And when I say that my bore mics at .4545 it's really cutting it close because my caliper, I could dig out my mics but right now I don't know where they are, is only rated to one thousandth of an inch. so that 5/10000 of an inch could be 2/10000 or 7/10000 I just don't have a way to tell right now. I suspect I am on the low side so I am just a red c__t hair within specs.

I suspect that the barrel I get will be better because they would have changed the tooling when it got this worn. I probably got one of the last barrels of the run so it is just inside specs.

I was going to get a 280 Remington barrel for this action. I'm contemplating sending the check for it when I send the rifle in for the new 45/70 barrel. Again I don't want to rip them off or be a PITA but I just want what's right.