Curiosity about the 444 Marlin

[OverMax]

Always wanted one. But haven't been able to find a used one locally for quite awhile. I'm curious why they never became popular with us sportsman? Especially those pre button ones.
{The venerable 444 Marlin.}


O/M

[376Steyr]

The 444 was designed around the jacketed 44 Magnum handgun bullets then available, with a 265 grain loading being the heaviest available at the time. The gun-savvy types who liked the concept of a big bore lever action throwing heavy slugs were not impressed. When Marlin re-introduced their 45-70 lever, when the 45-70 had a resurgence of interest, it pretty much stomped on the sales of the 444.

[pietro]

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While I've owned several .444's over the years since 1966, they're generally too much gun for many shooters, and probably also too much for most American game animals, when it comes right down to it.



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[Scharfschuetze]

I believe that the 265 grain bullet was about the heaviest bullet that the Marlin444 would stabilize in the original issue due to a rather slow rifling twist rate of 1 in 38 inches. Many of my acquaintances in the 70s felt that rate handicapped the rifle and was the reason for its failure in the market. As originally loaded, the 444 used (as noted above) the 44 Magnum bullet. At 444 velocities, it had many reported failures on deer due to the bullet coming apart without penetration. Hornady made a 265 grain bullet in .429 diameter for reloading that was constructed for 444 ballistics.

I almost bought one in 1970, but I didn't like it's high comb stock that didn't compliment its other wise trim woods rifle lines.

I see that Marlin's current web site gives a twist rate of 1 in 20 inches for the 444 which should stabilize the popular heavy bullets and solve all of those complaints that I heard back when it was originally introduced. They also have done away with the high comb stock and it really looks appealing now.

Here's a link:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/444.asp

[PAPABEAR]

I have taken several deer with this round all having expired without delay. Reloading for the round presented no particular problems; with the correct loading the round is very accurate. I would try a gc cast bullet cast a bit on the hard side.

[MT Chambers]

Not much need for this round, which needs shorter bullets with short noses, when the 45/70 covers everything much better.

[smkummer]

I believe the cartridge will linger on and it has its good qualities. Its almost 50 years old now. Marlin has sometimes been slow to change but the fact that they realize that heavier bullets are sometimes fired in the gun and has changed the twist to accomidate is a good thing. Ballard rifling has also helped. So when its all said and done, lighter 44 mag. loads for range, deer and plinking and 444 marlin loads for blowing stuff up and the once in a lifetime moose hunt. Although if I ever felt the need for a big old cartridge in a lever gun, it would be 45-70. I currently have a H&R repro officers model trapdoor and my 45-70 needs are well met.

[dnepr]

The 444 will never surpass the 45-70 in popularity but mine as thumped a lot of deer , I would probably enjoy a 45-70 but it would never replace my 444

[turmech]

I love my 444. I would not trade it for a 45-70, but where I live the 444 will handle anything I will find and then some. Mine is the guide gun version, about 10 years old has ballard riffling and 1 and 20 twist. It is probably my favorite gun. It has shot everything I have fed in it well from factory Remington ammo to hand loads with jacketed and cast. I currently use a 275 grain custom mold accurate mold made for me.

The most common factory load is the Remington and although accurate I found the bullet will not hold up to the velocity of the 444. I have no personal knowledge of the Hornady factory ammo, but I don't like anything with a plastic tip. I think the lack of good factory ammo or commercial bullets has turned many off on the 444.

[OverMax]

I think the lack of good factory ammo or commercial bullets has turned many off on the 444.

Your spot on turmech. Your thread has some interesting points. Would I be correct in assuming because of your rifles 1-20 twist you are at or near the highest threshold of boolit weights suggested for that particular twist? (w/ 275 gr.)
If that were correct? Well than the poor rifling choice in the earlier Marlin barrels of 1-38. {A slow twist for the 444 that would shoot heavier bullets better.} I'll bet that's exactly why Marlin let it slide in popularity. Not wanting there 444 to compete with the 45-70. I would think the 444 would show much better performance and accuracy probably in its ability to stabilize a much heavier a 300-375 gr. something boolit in those earlier rifle's verses that short stubby pistol bullet of 265 gr. which would preform very well in Marlin's later models. Interesting.

[ironhead7544]

The 444 Marlin was an attempt to get the lever action a more powerful cartridge for longer range shooting. No new 45-70 rifles had been made for some time. The 444 is an Express cartridge, like the old ones that were meant to shoot flat to 150 yards. I bought one so I could use the 44 Magnum bullets for cheaper practice. The 265 gr Hornady was made for the 444 and has a much thicker jacket. The 265 gr is also about ideal for the 1 in 38 in twist. Excellent accuracy and flat shooting to around 200 yards, at least for the traditional lever guns of the time. The 265 gr was still carrying over 1000 ft pounds of energy at 200 yards.

Considering the cost back then, and if you wanted a traditional lever gun, it was a bargain. Light loads with cast boolits were also easy and cheap to make. For a lever gun fan, whats not to like?

[wrench man]

Mines a 444T built in '71, I never checked the twist?, haven't shot anything but factory Remington 240grn out of it so far, with the Lyman peep on it, it'll put them right where I tell it to!, it also has a low comb stock, I haven't been able to figure if it's factory?, replaced?, or modified?, but it works WELL! with the peep sights.
I will say the recoil is fairly stout, but that's compared to my 1895M in 450 Marlin throwing 350grn slugs!

[OverMax]

ironhead7544;
Not having a rifle here to prove my point in regards to bullet weight preference. I looked to the reference books I have here. A speer #11 & a hornady #3rd edition.

Speer gave info on only one bullet. Their {240 gr.} for use in the 444. A common thin jacketed bullet designed for pistol use.

On the other hand the Hornady did offer recipes for both the 240 & 265 gr. bullets for use in the 444 and again for pistol use also.

So I assumed the 265 gr. was nothing more than another thin jacketed pistol bullet having a dual purpose. (444 & 44-mag usage)

Here and there over the years. I've found at times jacketed pistol bullets do not always work in a rifle application. {Speeds are so much different and time spent in the bore creating excessive spin are a couple of the many reasons.} They tumble, they break-up, or just become MIA down range. But not always so with a poured cast that's been resized & lubed properly. So if my theory holds true about twist and bullet weighs. A 444 will undoubtedly give the 45-70 some competition. That's if the 444 rifle is fed the correct bullet with the ideal bullet weight for its barrel twist rate.
Oh how I would like to play some with a early 444 Marlin and cast some G/C bullets for it. Just to see if I could make a really big game thumper out of it.

O/M

[ironhead7544]

OverMax: The 265 gr Hornady 44 cal jacket is 3 times thicker than the standard 44 Magnum bullet. Today, we also have partitioned bullets for the 44 cal. And a lot of good cast bullet designs. You are making me think of getting another 444! Even with 300 gr bullets the 444 can give good accuracy. Some rifles dont know they have too slow of a twist. Havent shot the 1 in 20 but it should be good.

[dnepr]

OverMax: The 265 gr Hornady 44 cal jacket is 3 times thicker than the standard 44 Magnum bullet. Today, we also have partitioned bullets for the 44 cal. And a lot of good cast bullet designs. You are making me think of getting another 444! Even with 300 gr bullets the 444 can give good accuracy. Some rifles dont know they have too slow of a twist. Havent shot the 1 in 20 but it should be good.

Mine is one of those 444's that doesn't know it isn't supposed to stabilize heavy bullets, it did very well with 300 gr Barnes originals, and is showing great promise with the lee c430-310 rf

[OverMax]

Lucky to have a cabela's not 15 minuets away from here. Sooner or later an early model will show up in their racks. I expect to pay dearly for it. But I'm going to treat myself to one. As far as a 1-20 twist current model. It has to be a sweet one to take afield. As for myself. I just don't care for those button rifles.

O/M

[Bo1]

I love my Marlin 444 lever action.
It is an older (probably 70's) model, and is a hard hitting excellent brush gun.
I've only shot factory Remington ammunition through it so far, but am looking forward to casting some heavier boolit's for it.
Bo

[OverMax]

dnepr;
You guys up in Canada always have those nice rifles were all looking for down here in the States. So your hinting you have a 1-20 twister and it does well with the 300 weight cast. That doesn't surprise me.
For your info: I fish up by Kenora and Dryden occasionally for Lakers on Bolder. And down by the Sioux Narrows for walleye. Scenery is nothing short of gorgeous up there.
Is that a older Moto Guzzi I think I see in your avatar?

[Lloyd Smale]

My 444 outfitter would proably be the last lever gun in the safe if i had to start selling them. It hits game hard, almost as hard as a 4570 and is alot easier on the shoulder and with it being able to use pistol bullets for light loads it makes it a bit more vesitile then a 4570. A couple grains of bullseye and a 200 grain cast bullet is like shooting a 22. A 340 lfngc with a heavy powder charge will kill anything in the world. Whats not to like.

Heres an article my buddy wrote on his. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/an...4Outfitter.htm Search around on that forum and youll see some other articles by jim taylor and paco kelly. 444 lovers are in good company.

[nekshot]

Count me in with Lloyd. I had a early marlin and exchanged it for a win timber model. It would be the last gun I would part with. If remington would have been serious from the beginning with marketing a hard hitting gun instead of sissy pistol bullets this gun would be touted as more than a novelty(by those who don't know what it can do). Lee 310 gr full steam gives moa at 100yds. Paco Kelly sure thinks they are great, but he forgot more than most shooters wish they knew!