303 Brit ok for PP first timer?

[Indio]

Hey all.. I'm interested to give paper patching a go and wonder in my No1 MkIII 303 would be a good candidate? .. Its got a near mint bore, has been bedded and i recently was given a parker hale target peep sight for it.

I have read some of the stickies and am I right think the bullet wants to be ~.002 over the bore dia and patched up to about the same over the groove dia?.. I slugged the barrel today and its .3125-.3128 best i can tell, the bore size was a bit harder to get a consistent measurement, I'll have to try again in the week.

Will a mold made for the 308 be in the ball park for size? I have this NOE mold (mines plain base not G/C'ed as shown) if its sized right would it make good choice? And how far up the nose would the patch want to extend?



Alloy? ..what would be idea given my target velocity is 2000-2300fps? I can get a hard commercial caster alloy (6%A, 2%T, 92%L) locally and can water it down with some pure if its too hard?

Any thoughts and tips would be greatly appreciated

[303Guy]

I would think that boolit would be fine and I would also think a harder alloy would be a good idea. That boolit would be about close to ideal weight I should think and the velocity target sounds about right to me. I think too, that patched diameter should be adjusted with the paper thickness until a snug fit in the throat is achieved and hopefully also in the unsized case neck. If the nose shank is too large with a snug neck fit then you could conceivably size only that portion to get it to fit snug in the throat - compressing the paper slightly only. The best thing to do is jump in the deep end and go for it.

A powder my Brits seem to like is H4350 with a near full case. Another they seem to like for slightly lower loadings is W748 with Dacron filler (I use more than generally suggested as my objective is to create a wad buffer under the boolit as well as to position the powder). If I use lower loads of H4350, I use wheat germ as a filler, slightly compressed so it won't settle and go loose. Now I have not done extensive range testing so take my suggestions as just that - suggestions! I did have very good results with a half case full of H4227 with wheat bran filler. The load was quite mild so after about 100m the trajectory made it hard to hit anything but at 100m it was shooting 1 1/2 inch groups if I recall, with horrible V sights. I spoiled a turkey or two's day with it.

[pdawg_shooter]

The 303 Brit is great for patching. I size mine .304, give them 2 wraps if 16# paper, let dry, lube and run them through a .313 die. They shoot as well or better than jacketed at a slightly higher velocity.

[docone31]

The .303 Brit was the first paper patch I did.
They are great to do and as Pdawg stated, perform great.
I use the Lee 180gn .303 casting, size it to .308, then wrap twice with lined notebook paper or computer paper. I then, when it is dry, wipe a little Turtle wax on it, and size to .314. The tail compresses to the base and it works great!
I am still on the original cases I started with to reload. Pressures are less with paper.

[edwin41]

i think a soft alloy , about ten bhn., would be more than enough in these velocities.
mine are about ten bhn hardness , in a 6.5x55 mm cartridge , with no leading of the bore.

very nice rifle by the way....i really like those enfields.

[Indio]

Thanks for the posts people, it sounds like I'm on the right track. I bought a cigarette roller online that should be here any day (my hand rolled attempts will take some more practice ). After looking at some of the stickies in the alloy section I'm planning to mix my hard alloy 50/50 with pure to give me a clip-on WW equivalent. A friend has a .308 die for the cores and a .314 die for the patched I can use as a starting point. Now to see what's the best paper I can find locally and get casting, I'll post some updates as I go... Thanks again people

[Indio]

This project has been on the back burner for a while but today I had a some time so I played around some.

I ended up getting some push thru dies from buckshot.. nice dies
My test batch of projectiles have been sized to .305.. interesting the section forward of the front band is .305 as it drops from the mold so the nose will be well supported.
I have decided to give brown craft paper a try, two raps comes out to about .315, I intend to size to .314

How do things look so far?

[Dan Cash]

Looks like it will fly. Is the bullet seated out far enough to let the patch start to engage the rifling?

[303Guy]

Brown craft paper? Mmm .... I like the look of it. Those castings look great and so do the patchings. I'm looking forward to the results.

[Any Cal.]

I was considering patching some bullets while browsing this forum, and your post reminds me that I have some of the same paper in my vehicle to try. Interested in how it works for you... I should have some info in a couple hours on my end.

-edit- craft paper appears promising, more info in my thread.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
A very good looking boolit and patching job. There could be a problem if you try to get hi speed with that boolit. That elegantly pointed boolit will not have enough support to not slump at high acceleration. A more blunt profile can better take hi speed. This is the same for paper patching or regular cast shooting. You do have the advantage if nose support much farther up the the olgive than you would get shooting plain cast. That will help some.
n.h.schmidt

[Indio]

Hi
A very good looking boolit and patching job. There could be a problem if you try to get hi speed with that boolit. That elegantly pointed boolit will not have enough support to not slump at high acceleration. A more blunt profile can better take hi speed. This is the same for paper patching or regular cast shooting. You do have the advantage if nose support much farther up the the olgive than you would get shooting plain cast. That will help some.
n.h.schmidt

I hope the bullet works ok, I'm also concerned about the nose.. if after a load of testing it wont shoot I will be looking at getting one made that is like the original .303 brit round nose projectile but made to suit my rifles throat.

Question to all: I've read here when final sizing the patched bullet people put a wax or lube on them... Whats the thought on using Lee Alox for this? I just tried a few by putting some Alox on my fingers putting a light coating on and then sizing.. it looks good but I will cut one off later to see if it has stuck the paper to the bullet at all (bad right?)

[pdawg_shooter]

LLA will work if you dont use too much. Get carried away and it will soak in and glue the patch to the paper. I am now using regular lube (BAC) mixed with vasilene to lube with.

[303Guy]

I use case lube from my lube pad to seat the boolits. It soaks away but does lube the patch in the bore. I'm now trying boot polish for waterproofing on top of the case lube. It waterproofs OK but I don't see any difference between with and without in the bore yet - I haven't specifically tested it. Boot polish is dissolved carnauba wax so can't be bad. In my case there too many variables I'm still working on like paper thickness and strength and alloy strength. Alloy strength is going to be your determining factor with those pointy nose boolits but you did say you have a hard alloy.

What you might try doing is working up a slower load with low launch pressure to achieve patch jetisoning/fragmentation at the muzzle before going for the full power load. I once worked up a load for a 'new' gun to find the point where the patch was properly confetti-ing at the muzzle before taking the gun out and it shot great first time out. That one happens to have the perfect paper patch bore and throat (that reminds me, I must get that one out again ...... so many projects!)

If your pointy boolits work I'll be wanting to try a similar design for long range target shooting one day (another project).

[Indio]

Ok I tried Lee Alox for final sizing but I think it soaks into this paper too much, they look great but cutting one off it seems the layers stick together in places.. maybe I will come back to this later after I get results on the target. I tried using dry silicon spray and that seems to work well so I'll give it a go.

Did I read here that its good if your patched bullets are a snug fit in once fired cases? The inside of my once fired cases measure at .318 my patched bullets fall into the cases .. I have a Lee Collet/Neck sizer die so that will be the plan to start with.

Tonight I made up a dummy COAL round to keep in my die box.. I wanted it to jam in the throat/rifling but still be able to unload it and not have the projectile stuck in the barrel in a pinch. I was really surprised how deep it will go! The black mark next to the bullet is how much of the patch shows rifling marks.. that's a good thing right? This rifle will be loaded single shot (fullbore match rules) so loading from the mag isn't an issue.

[303Guy]

That looks about right. You may need a thicker paper but not until you've tried those on the range. My patched boolits that fit have more patch showing than yours and the boolit bases seat right down to the shoulder neck junction. Mine also seat slug into an unsized case neck. But once again, range tests before changing anything.

If you have some means of capturing a boolit you could try a very light load, the idea being to examine the boolit base after firing for symmetry and trailing edge damage/feathering/whatever.



The first two show trailing edge feathering and base damage while the third one is undamaged and undistorted (the small indentation on the base edge is from something in the catch medium).

[Indio]

I loaded a handful of rounds to test at the range on saturday, I will only have access to the 25m test range for sighting in rifles but that will do at this stage to see if they are going straight. Powder wise I may have been a bit ambitious but I did put some thought into it ... results to follow



My rifle .. A 1911 BSA MkIII

[303Guy]

That's a nice looking rifle! Looking forward to your results. What is the measured thickness of that paper?

[Indio]

That's a nice looking rifle! Looking forward to your results. What is the measured thickness of that paper?

Paper measures at .003, double thickness is measuring .006-.0065.. One side of the paper is smoother than the other, the rough side you can see lots of long fibers in the paper but it seems very uniform. I'm patching smooth side against the bullet so far. My first few trials with different papers (std printer paper, notebook paper etc) rolling wet they all ripped very easy.. this brown stuff has yet to rip even when really soaked and you seem to be able to get some stretch in it if you get carried away. I'm hand rolling so far, I gave up on the cigarette roller... fingers crossed for this paper, my local supermarket sells it for a few dollars for a 10m roll, I think its aimed at people covering kids school books

Off to the range now...

[yeahbub]

Those look pretty sweet, Indio.

I was thinking the same thing about that church steeple ogive, but I cast a similar design from an old H&G mold intended to duplicate the 173gr jacketed match boolit for .30-06. When shooting them bare, not so good. Patched, they work very well, in part due to the unsupported ogive length being effectively shortened. Given the gradual curvature, switching from .0025 drafting vellum to .004 plain butcher paper shortens the free length 1/8" or so. They are quenched WW, sized .309, patched and sized .311, for a finished diameter of .312. In a Mosin, the chambered ones are virtually identical to yours.