Bullet for Buffalo

[waksupi]

Well, I know it can be done, but if I was going with a .308, it would be with a Nosler Partition or another bullet of equal integrity and NOT a cast bullet. Things can and do go wrong and that is something you or the critter don't need.

As has already been said many times, SHOT PLACEMENT!

Put down one of the last 2 buffalo from a departed friends herd, while his son took on the other with the .44 that Lennie had used repeatedly for the critters at butcher time.

One down with a 45/70 to the head, and the other still standing after about 4 shots to some where ????? in the head when another friend took control of the .44 from the son and finished off the critter after it had run down over the hill.

It was clearly shot placement as at the range I/we shot (15 - 20yds), the 45/70 was not really needed although it sure did the job in quick fashion.

However, it was no faster then the first shot would have been with the .44, IF that first shot and the next and the next and the next had been properly placed.

Use a reasonable caliber AND bullet and in this Ol'Coot's opinion, a 30cal cast is a few steps below the first rung of the ladder.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I am just opposite of that view. I would trust a cast boolit over any jacketed bullet.

[Marlin Junky]

There is an opinion on this site that those here are at the top of the cast bullet game......... Published match results only represent those who participated in them, not the folks who do things for their own satisfaction to see what really can be done..... and they don't care if anybody else believes what they do.

If you have doubts, look at the CBA records:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/natio.../natrecord.pdf

that are shot under match conditions..... way under what Griz said. Now just what makes them so special...Ehhhhhh!

Bob,

Are the gun spec's available for those corresponding target results?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

There sure are a lot of OPINIONS from people who have never done it, who have shot deer, who kill pen-raised animals, etc etc etc etc.

For my part, we hunted WOOD BISON for years in the Northwest Territories, and I learned a few things on the subject of killing big bison, in the course of taking a dozen or so of the beasts.

How big? The largest bison I killed was a bull of about twelve years. It yielded 1700 pounds of MEAT cut-and-wrapped in the freezer. 1700 pounds! Live weight.... maybe 3000 pounds. His hide spanned our 12-wide "company house" from up-one-wall to up-the-other=wall.Now, tell me about your damned deer rifles....

I want my animals DOWN and DEAD immediately, without waiting for some unknown amount of time for the verdict. Our bison lived in HEAVY BUSH, with no fences for many thousands of square miles of room for a wounded animal to vanish.

Our early experiences with shooting bison with "deer rifles" quickly disabused me of that concept. The .30-06/7mm Magnum rifles, even with heavy-for-caliber Partitions and the like, generally ended-up killing them....eventually. In disgust, I obtained a .404 Jeffrey for the job, and the difference is as night from day. I once watched a friend shoot a bull squarely in the forehead at close range with .30-06 220 factory loads... THREE TIMES. A final round from the side of his head ended the affair. The three forehead hits failed to penetrate the skull, or to put the animal down.

You people are talking about using North-American deer rifles on animals that can rival AFRICAN big game in size. Show at least a LITTLE respect for the creatures.

Personally, bison rifles would start with a heavy-bullet .338 load. The outfitter who ran Wood Bison hunts for visiting hunters out of Fort Smith, NWT, was a native gent named Frank Laviolette. By the time I met him, he DEMANDED that his sport hunters brought at least a .375 H&H.... do you suppose that just maybe he knew a thing or two?

Damn Bruce... that's quite a story.

How do you suppose a paper patched .35 (at least 250 grains) out of a Whelen or .350RM would fare, given the bison is within reasonable range?

MJ

[45 2.1]

Are the gun spec's available for those corresponding target results? MJ

The CBA should have those someplace in their records. You will probably find that everything except Production firearms are custom made and relatively expensive. Contact the CBA about that though.

[BruceB]

How do you suppose a paper patched .35 (at least 250 grains) out of a Whelen or .350RM would fare, given the bison is within reasonable range?

MJ

With a couple of caveats, the Whelen could do alright.

First, I'd want the HEAVIEST bullet I could find, even if it meant buying a new mould of 300 grains or so.

Second, that bullet should EXPAND. With paper-patching, a pure-lead bullet is very workable and should do maximum damage without breaking up. I do believe that for MY use, I'd prefer one of my cast softpoints, to ensure a heavy un-deformed shank would remain to maintain penetrating ability.

I had a very bitter experience with non-expanding bullets on bison. In the first bison season after getting the .404, the only ammo I could find was factory-loaded Kynoch SOLIDS...400-grain bullets with HEAVY steel jackets, intended for the largest African game.... elephant, rhino, Cape buffalo. Velocity was 2150 fps. Since this was also the only brass available to me at the time, it pushed me into the world of Berdan primers, too....but that's another story.

We had a regulation forbidding non-expanding bullets, but a discussion with the Game department determined that my African loads would not create any legal difficulty; the wardens were concerned with military FMJ stuff being mis-used.

So...my wife and I came on a herd of bison feeding out from a big stand of timber into open ground, and WE were out in the open. The bison were jumpy from intensive sport hunting, and they were a good 400 yards away. We left our truck and CRAWLED on our bellies for about 250 yards through short grass and a few inches of snow, until we were only 200 yards or less from the herd of maybe 250 animals. They were getting suspicious, so I decided to shoot from (estimated) 200 yards.

A medium-sized cow was on the outskirts of the herd with nothing beyond her, meaning no problems with pass-through hits.

I fired SEVEN of those solids into her chest area, She showed zero reaction to any of the hits.... I could HEAR the bullets hit, and as time went on I could SEE (from 200 yards) the blood running from the fur under the heart/lung area. I then decided to move up closer, in spite of advice received before the hunt. Bad move.

She spooked and ran into the heavy bush, taking a bunch of other animals with her.

We followed-up until it got dark, maybe an hour or so. Tracking was easy in the light snow cover, but we never caught up and ended-up losing her in the heavy bush (visibility as low as ten yards, and getting dark)..

I am morally CERTAIN that she died in fairly-short order, but that doesn't make me feel any better. To this day, she is the ONLY wounded animal I've ever failed to recover, and I've put bullets into a LOT of animals.

By way of comparison, I shot that huge bull from 200 yards with the same rifle, but with Barnes Original softpoint bullets. The first round hit his heart from broadside, and the second hit at the last rib angling forward as he wheeled away from me. That bullet dropped him right THERE, and exited through the far shoulder.... maybe four feet or so of penetration. He was still trying to get up when I got to him, and needed a coup-de-grace headshot to finish the story.

From that point onward, no bison required more than a single .404 round to stop them, with a couple also requiring finishers.

My last Wood Bison hunt in the NWT was in'96, by which time it had devolved into a draw system for a limited number of tags (fifteen! I was lucky!).

The rifle for that hunt was my .416 Rigby with 400-grain X-bullets. I was far from the only "local nut case" with a heavy rifle. Many hunters of my acquaintance bought bigger calibers for bison; one good friend had his BRNO ZKK602 in .458 re-chambered to .450 Ackley. The rifle then drove a 500-grain bullet at 2400fps, which is the same speed my .404 delivers with 400 grains.

Again, these bison had to be HUNTED, in heavy bush mixed with patches of open grassland. They were alert and needed normal hunting tactics. It was NOT a case of walking up within a few yards and dropping a semi-tame animal.

[btroj]

Excellent point Bruce- big difference between hunting them and just shooting them.

I would be fine with a 375 H&H but only because I can shoot one well. I think failures with the big guns is often because people are afraid of them, don't practice enough with them, and think a hit anywhere is gonna be fatal.

[Griz44mag]

M-tech,
I did not mean to mislead you on my benchrest friends, I don't know what projectiles they shoot in their benchrest rifles at the matches. I do know most of them shoot 30BR rifles. I do know I see targets the size of a piece of notebook paper with 50 X markers that are probably a font size 14 on them, and every X has a bullet hole in it.
I do not shoot competition benchrest. I do shoot competition pistol on occasion.
However, this thread was SUPPOSED to be about the appropriate round for hunting a really big American Bison cow.
Consensus seems to be that shot placement is #1 reason for success. I have that covered. I shoot 100-200 yard load workups almost every week. I stay polished with my rifle(s) and have absolute confidence in my ability to place a shot EXACTLY where I want it, and enough experience to hold the shot back if I don't have the perfect condition to make reason #1 a sure bet. The question is centered around the rifle and projectile that will best serve the purpose. Heavy seems to be the choice of those who have been there and done it. Since I have not hunted buffalo, I asked here to get some insight from those who have. What I got was advice from a lot of folks who THINK they know what should be used, but have not done it themselves. There are a few here that have hunted buffalo, and their advice is exactly what I was seeking in the first place. I have listened, and have procured a 45-70 CVA APEX rifle, that should arrive in a week or so. I will scope it accordingly, secure the appropriate reloading supplies and start working up loads and practicing until I reach the level of proficiency with it that will be required to hunt bison ethically and safely. For those who only want to question my ability to put a hole in a piece of paper and not add anything relevant to my quest for information, well, it matters not that you have added nothing to the thread. I will follow up this whole thread sometime in late December or early January, hopefully with a few pictures and a freezer full of meat to show off.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the story Bruce...

I'll probably never get a chance to hunt Wood or Mountain Bison, but the Plains variety is on the menu.

MJ

[gandydancer]

The ranch guide will show you where to place your shot on the Buff. got one in 96 at triple U ranch in so Dakota 105 yards truck fender rest. C.sharps 40/65 286 grain lead Boolit with black powder 2F. went down where he stood. while there watched the ranch owner shoot 21 Buffalo with a Ruger single action 22 mag all one shot kills.as they came up the cage ramp and stopped at the top. he stood on top of cage and shot them down through the neck instant kills. GD

[NVScouter]

Griz I've never shot bison but I've put down my share of cows. There is no similarity and I have no idea why these "facts" are coming up from others. Also the negativity is wearing on the thread.

I just think more bullet mass is needed for that "almost" perfect shot placement to hedge your bets on this awesome hunt.

[Bullshop]

Not saying a 45/70 BP or BP type load wont do the job because anyone that knows anything of American history knows better. Just going to mention this to show how important shot placement is regardless of caliber.
My neighbor had a hunter come in to shoot a bison. As always he had the hunter sight in his rifle before the hunt. I was there for the sight in. The rifle was a Sharps 45/70 using the Lyman 457125 boolit loaded with black powder.
I looked at one of his cartridges and asked about the alloy because the boolit seemed a bit hard. He said they were made from wheel weights. I suggested they might work a little better if they were softer. He assured me that he was confident in the load and his proficiency with it.
Later I was told that he took a broad side head shot but I don't recall the distance but knowing my neighbor never let anyone shoot more than about 50 yards.
At the shot the cow bolted and mingled with the heard of about 150 animals. The heard moved along and they could not single out the shot cow.
The next day after the herd had settled they went out to look again and found the cow grazing with the heard. They identified her as the one with a spot of blood on each side or her head. The shot must have penciled through at a point that missed anything important.
I got to shoot a big bull bison once with a Marlin 45/70. This animal was hit by a car and hurt enough that he meandered off the road about 100 yards and laid down. Once down he stiffened up and couldn't get up. I was on the road kill list and it was right by my house ( by Ak. standards) so fish and game called me to go get it. I was only a few steps away and shot from the front just above between the eyes. That was it lights out right now. The load was with smokeless powder but a 500gn paper patch boolit at 1550 fps mv.
I shot a grizz that another neighbor had wounded with this same load and got the same results. That shot went under the chin and ended up under the hide on the rump expanded to the size of a nickel for about half its length.
Anyway good luck on that hunt!

[mstarling]

Must admit that I am much more a big bore guy and prefer something that will kill quickly and with authority. Last buffalo I took was with the same rifle I had used that year to take a Cape Buffalo in Tanzania ... a .416 Rigby with 350 gr Barnes Xs at 2700 fps. One shot drop event with the buffalo.

Members of the herd did gather around the dead one and it took a while for them to give up their guard.

If using a smaller rifle I would go with no less that a 30 cal 200 gr Nosler Partition as penetration is an issue on big animals. With a smaller rifle I'd want a friend around to help just in case.

[1Shirt]

Having watched this thread for awhile, will now add my 2 cents. I would only use a 308 with a premium jacketed bullet, not that the proper cast of around 180-200 of appropriate hardness would not work and work well. However, given my druthers, if I were to use cast on buff, would not want less than a 35 cal, 250 or better with wide flat nose doing at least 2000fps. Better, I would want a 375H&H with a 270-300gr. wide flat nose doing at least 1800. Best for me would be a 45-70, with either one of the old 360 Gould HP doing 15-1600, or a 405 gr big flat nose like a Ranch Dog doing 16-1700. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!

[Griz44mag]

1shirt,
Have you ever used any of these recommended loads on a large bodied animal, and what was that animal?
I have hunted for over 50 years, from the time I was in grade school, and this will be my first animal of this size. Texas deer just don't get very big.
I am curious how they performed for you.
I too, put down several cows in my younger days with nothing but a 22 at point blank range.
I have spent the last few days doing a lot of digging into the ballistics and specifics of the cartridge and the many variations of speeds and bullet weights.
I intend to start testing this summer with a 405gr lead flat nose at 1500-1800 fps, which with 2495 powder should run around 18-22k psi. That is well withing the design limits of the Apex. Lead will be alloyed to 15BHN to start with, and moved downward if the expansion is not acceptable. According to the charts and material, this should stay within the material tolerances and not deform under acceleration, keeping the flight path consistent. Hopefully it will deform upon rapid de-acceleration!
Range of the shot will be a max 100 yards. Unless this rifle is just totally awful on repeatable accuracy, that should be no issue.
I should be receiving the dies, brass, trimmer, mold and rifle in the next 2 weeks.
Needless to say, I am excited and looking forward to doing a complete workup with a caliber I have never owned before.
I ordered a dozen of the collapsible 5 gallon water bags to test on.

[Griz44mag]

If you have doubts, look at the CBA records:

Holy buffalo cow batman.
I just downloaded the scorecards posted here.
These guys are holding tighter groups with a HANDGUN at 100 yards than I am holding with what I considered a very accurate rifle.
I guess I just thought I was good, cause these guys are shooting under .2 MOA with their heavy barrel rifles - with cast bullets.
Anyway, back to the buffs (as Bruce puts it). Maybe Bruce can finish getting me up to speed on the jargon before I go hunt them.

[crabo]

Excellent point Bruce- big difference between hunting them and just shooting them.

I shot a buffalo at about 35 yards through the ear with a 460420 at 1500 fps, right where the rancher told me to shoot. He said it was a perfect shot. However even though the bull dropped immediately, he still tried to get back up.

The rancher ran over, shot him in the ear again with a 30-06 and had his son drop the bucket on the front end loader on him to claim him before the herd could gather round.

This rancher finds it easier to kill them this way, than to run them through a chute and get them all excited. I would like to do a hunt sometime, but this buffalo ate great. I couldn't pass up a chance to shoot a buffalo with a 45/70 guide gun and one of my boolits.

[quilbilly]

LOL, --- That's a story I think I would enjoy hearing.....

Another word to the wise. Don't get upwind of a herd of buffalo when you have a 32 gal trash can full of apple pulp from a local cider maker in back of your truck. At least make sure you have enough gas in the truck to tire them out.

[Rattus58]

As this is a ranch hunt I would try and get to within less than 100 yards for my first shot and be ready for a follow up shot. You wont have to worry about loosing a wounded animal but you want to be as humane as possible. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but I have killed water buffalo with a 45-70 double rifle.

Getting close shouldn't be a problem... a friend of mine went on a buffalo hunt in wyoming or somewhere and the rancher drove him up to one while he was sitting in the bucket of a payloader...

[TXGunNut]

Never had the opportunity to shoot a buff, probably never will......but if I do it will be with my 45-90 Sharps or possibly my Guide Gun in 45-70. I'd approach it like I do most other CB projects, it's all about the history. Shooting a buffalo with a modern cartridge just doesn't seem right. For me it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity and I want to do it right.
JMHO, of course.

[gandydancer]

That's how I felt when I got mine.Blackpowder all the way. MY buddy got his with a 340 weatherby Ruger # 1 (re-barreled) Just did not smell the same. lol and as close as we could get with the Bronco was a little over 100 yards. My buddy got his first. the buff dropped where he stood. I walked up to it with the ranch owner and in his right hand he had a large curved green mt knife. the bison was on his left side with his back to us.the ranch owner tapped it in the right eye. nothing. and then he called to bring the flatbed truck for loading. it was then I ask him what he would have done had the animal blinked? He looked at me with a small smile on his face. and said run like hell for the Bronco. I got mine the next day and stayed by the truck until he said all clear.PS the Bronco we used was all beat to **** and rolled over a few times by the Buffalo before we got there. it was a great time. I would like to do it again. at that time it was a $1000. for the hunt. now its $2400. GD

Never had the opportunity to shoot a buff, probably never will......but if I do it will be with my 45-90 Sharps or possibly my Guide Gun in 45-70. I'd approach it like I do most other CB projects, it's all about the history. Shooting a buffalo with a modern cartridge just doesn't seem right. For me it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity and I want to do it right.
JMHO, of course.