Best 30 to 40 caliber rifle to use with cast boolits for big game

[StrawHat]

405 wcf.

[Ironnewt]

You do realize that there is no "wrong" answer to this question.

[Jupiter7]

One caveat. There are a bunch of wrong answers. Re-read this thread, I think that the possible use on bears rules out quite a few choices. Dangerous game requires a big wallop. I like 30-30 and I'd not consider it adequate if my life depended on it vs. a bear. 358 Winchester has a good following here and seems a natural for cast, it gets my vote.

On a side note, a buddy of mine years ago shot a black bear in east tennesse with a Ruger #1 45/70 from a tree stand from about 35yds, good shot, bear still climbed tree after him. Shot him 6 more times with .357 gp100 at near point blank range. Bear fell from tree and walked off. Found next day, dead. 45/70 was a mortal wound, just not DRT.

[geezer56]

Read Paco Kelly's thoughts on the 35 Whelen. I did, and it convinced me. I just got through assembling a Savage in that caliber. I own, and shoot, a 375 H&H, a 405 Win, and a 416 Rigby. For scratchy bitey things, bigger is better, but the whelen is no slouch. Pistol weight boolits up to 300 gr thumpers is a nice option too. Molds are available, brass is easy to find. You can use 25-06, 270, 30-06, 280 Rem, or even Whelen brass. Rigby brass is 2 bucks a pop, 375 isn't much better.

[x101airborne]

I have always had an affection for the 348 Winchester. Made for big game and cast boolits from the get go.

[vmathias]

You do realize that there is no "wrong" answer to this question.

Well I do realize they all shoot but do know some shoot better than others with Cast Boolits. You also lose velocity and energy with cast. Would an 06 be better than a 45-70??? The 06 is faster with what I would assume to be more energy. But the 45-70 is a much bigger projectile. Certain guns shoot better than others as well.

[vmathias]

One caveat. There are a bunch of wrong answers. Re-read this thread, I think that the possible use on bears rules out quite a few choices. Dangerous game requires a big wallop. I like 30-30 and I'd not consider it adequate if my life depended on it vs. a bear. 358 Winchester has a good following here and seems a natural for cast, it gets my vote.

On a side note, a buddy of mine years ago shot a black bear in east tennesse with a Ruger #1 45/70 from a tree stand from about 35yds, good shot, bear still climbed tree after him. Shot him 6 more times with .357 gp100 at near point blank range. Bear fell from tree and walked off. Found next day, dead. 45/70 was a mortal wound, just not DRT.

There could have been many factors as to why the bear did not go down with the first shot. First off, Bears are a SUPER tough animal, Could have been bad shot placement or wrong bullet. A buffalo is a big dense tough animal yet the 45-70 was the caliber of choice to take these behemoths. My buddy shot a button buck (that he thought was a doe) last year "broadside shot" with a 30 06 180 grain core lokt. That deer ran well over 100 yards before dying. I have never had one go more than 30 yards (big bucks included) with my 243. Just goes to show that power and weight is not always a SURE thing.

[Andrew Mason]

I'd say 375win or .405 winchester

[runfiverun]

Well I do realize they all shoot but do know some shoot better than others with Cast Boolits. You also lose velocity and energy with cast. Would an 06 be better than a 45-70??? The 06 is faster with what I would assume to be more energy. But the 45-70 is a much bigger projectile. Certain guns shoot better than others as well.

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.

[vmathias]

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.

So with your figures listed what would be my max effective range on big game with the 45-70 at those velocities?

[Pilgrim]

Went back and re-read your initial question. Lowest cost option is the .30-30. Brass is easy to find. Cartridge and rifles are cast boolit friendly. Some of the micro-grooves used to be difficult to shoot cast well. Harder boolits and a couple .001" oversize has apparently worked for some of these. Only downside to the .30-30 is marginal power for some "bear/elk/moose" situations. Close 2nd is the .35 Rem. A little more power and cast friendly. Downside is harder to find brass and rifles. On these 2 cartridges barrel length is whatever you buy since rebarreling, etc isn't likely needed. The next choice is .358 Win or .35 Whelen. These two will likely cost you more to buy the rifle than the 1st two. The Whelen is better if you want boolits heavier than ~250 gr. The .358 Win. is better if you are happy with boolits ~250 gr. and less as brass is easier to come by. Both of these are harder to find used, and selection of new rifles is pretty restricted. In any case you want a barrel of no less than 22", muzzle blast is nasty with short barrels. I rebarreled my BLR primarily due to a bad barrel, but might have rebarreled due to muzzle blast. The BLR barrel length of 18.5" is just too damn short. I have no idea why they picked that length. Not many of us hunt in kudzu patches! Standard twist is fine. The .375 Win and others of that ilk (groove dia.) are fine if you have a good source of brass and can find a rifle at reasonable price. Any cartridge other than .30-30, .35 Rem, .358 Win, and .35 Whelen will work fine but will cost you more for brass, and will make acquiring brass more difficult/expensive, as well more likely more expensive to acquire originally. FWIW...

[Jupiter7]

There could have been many factors as to why the bear did not go down with the first shot. First off, Bears are a SUPER tough animal, Could have been bad shot placement or wrong bullet. A buffalo is a big dense tough animal yet the 45-70 was the caliber of choice to take these behemoths. My buddy shot a button buck (that he thought was a doe) last year "broadside shot" with a 30 06 180 grain core lokt. That deer ran well over 100 yards before


dying. I have never had one go more than 30 yards (big bucks included) with my 243. Just goes to show that power and weight is not always a SURE thing.

I think we're on the same page for the most part. I was making 2 points in a round about way. A follow up shot would've stopped said bear, so maybe a bolt or lever action is in order. Point 2, nothing is a sure thing regardless of caliber. I've killed deer with much less energy downrange
and lost a couple sure things with much more energy. As said, placement is king.

[vmathias]

Went back and re-read your initial question. Lowest cost option is the .30-30. Brass is easy to find. Cartridge and rifles are cast boolit friendly. Some of the micro-grooves used to be difficult to shoot cast well. Harder boolits and a couple .001" oversize has apparently worked for some of these. Only downside to the .30-30 is marginal power for some "bear/elk/moose" situations. Close 2nd is the .35 Rem. A little more power and cast friendly. Downside is harder to find brass and rifles. On these 2 cartridges barrel length is whatever you buy since rebarreling, etc isn't likely needed. The next choice is .358 Win or .35 Whelen. These two will likely cost you more to buy the rifle than the 1st two. The Whelen is better if you want boolits heavier than ~250 gr. The .358 Win. is better if you are happy with boolits ~250 gr. and less as brass is easier to come by. Both of these are harder to find used, and selection of new rifles is pretty restricted. In any case you want a barrel of no less than 22", muzzle blast is nasty with short barrels. I rebarreled my BLR primarily due to a bad barrel, but might have rebarreled due to muzzle blast. The BLR barrel length of 18.5" is just too damn short. I have no idea why they picked that length. Not many of us hunt in kudzu patches! Standard twist is fine. The .375 Win and others of that ilk (groove dia.) are fine if you have a good source of brass and can find a rifle at reasonable price. Any cartridge other than .30-30, .35 Rem, .358 Win, and .35 Whelen will work fine but will cost you more for brass, and will make acquiring brass more difficult/expensive, as well more likely more expensive to acquire originally. FWIW...

One thing I failed to mention that you did, I should have stated in my opening question the availability of brass for said cartridges. It wont do me any good if i find the rifle but cant find the brass. I am leaning towards the 45-70. They seem to be readily available and from what I have read can be reloaded multiple times.

[Bullshop]

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.

375/06 will aproach 2300 fps with a 370gn boolit. I think that works out to about 5000 fpe. In 45/7 0you can only do that with what Ken Waters classed as the super group three class of firearms. Those include the Ruger #1, B-78 (1885Browning) and Siamese Mauser actions the Whitcliff and maybe a few other very strong actions most of which are single shot.
So the 375/06 is capable of developing energy enough to hunt Africa and makes the minimum caliber for some countries. It works on readily available actions. The brass, bullets, and boolit designs are readily available. It can be loaded down to 38/55 levels but still has more readily available brass than the 38/55 or up to truly big game levels.
It falls exactly in the caliber range you asked for and I dont think any other cartridge better fills your requirments.

[vmathias]

375/06 will aproach 2300 fps with a 370gn boolit. I think that works out to about 5000 fpe. In 45/7 0you can only do that with what Ken Waters classed as the super group three class of firearms. Those include the Ruger #1, B-78 (1885Browning) and Siamese Mauser actions the Whitcliff and maybe a few other very strong actions most of which are single shot.
So the 375/06 is capable of developing energy enough to hunt Africa and makes the minimum caliber for some countries. It works on readily available actions. The brass, bullets, and boolit designs are readily available. It can be loaded down to 38/55 levels but still has more readily available brass than the 38/55 or up to truly big game levels.
It falls exactly in the caliber range you asked for and I dont think any other cartridge better fills your requirments.

Although this sounds like a dandy caliber, I am looking in the 450-650 price range. Not sure if I can find that caliber/rifle combo with that price? Spending more on a rifle is not justified in the terrain I hunt. Pennsylvania has some pretty rough landscapes with very thick brush and most shots are 100 yards or less. The reason I prefer synthetics over wood.

[outdoorfan]

You didn't say to what distance you expect to be shooting at. I would leave the .30's out of the discussion, as they don't kill as reliably as the .35's. IMO, anything bigger than .35 will increase recoil, possibly be harder and more expensive to obtain brass, and will likely recoil more and not be as pleasant to shoot. .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen are your best bets, IMO. Get one with a 1/14 twist and 24 inch barrel (if possible). The Whelen has a long throat, so if you want to shoot boolits in the 200-230 range, I would go with the .358 Winny. The 14 twist will allow you to easily reach 2100-2300 fps with good accuracy and minimal fuss, whereas shooting the 30'06 at 1600-1800 fps IMO is boring and not very useful past 100 yards. Either way you won't be disappointed.

My 35 Whelen shoots a 250 grainer at 2350 fps, and it recoils about like a standard jacketed loaded 30'06 150 grainer at 2900 fps or so. Perhaps it's even lighter in recoil than that.

Edit: Oops, I see you just stated that your shots are pretty close. Still, the .35's will easily get you at to 200 yards or more with very minimal fuss.

Another thing that some people don't consider when it comes to the cost of the rifle, is that you have costs in load work-up. I spent wayyyyyyy less money and time finding a good load in the velocity range I wanted to shoot the Whelen than I did when trying to get the same velocity out of the 1/10 twist 30'06. Just food for thought.

I will be buying a new rifle in the near future in 30 to 40 Caliber. My intent is to use 100% cast for said rifle. Opinions wanted on rifles that work very well with cast. I will be using this for mainly deer and Bear so I will need something with enough knock down power for the game mentioned. Please mention barrel lengths, twist rates etc... Looking forward to hearing from you guys as to what works. Thanks...

[vmathias]

You didn't say to what distance you expect to be shooting at. I would leave the .30's out of the discussion, as they don't kill as reliably as the .35's. IMO, anything bigger than .35 will increase recoil, possibly be harder and more expensive to obtain brass, and will likely recoil more and not be as pleasant to shoot. .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen are your best bets, IMO. Get one with a 1/14 twist and 24 inch barrel (if possible). The Whelen has a long throat, so if you want to shoot boolits in the 200-230 range, I would go with the .358 Winny. The 14 twist will allow you to easily reach 2100-2300 fps with good accuracy and minimal fuss, whereas shooting the 30'06 at 1600-1800 fps IMO is boring and not very useful past 100 yards. Either way you won't be disappointed.

My 35 Whelen shoots a 250 grainer at 2350 fps, and it recoils about like a standard jacketed loaded 30'06 150 grainer at 2900 fps or so. Perhaps it's even lighter in recoil than that.

Edit: Oops, I see you just stated that your shots are pretty close. Still, the .35's will easily get you at to 200 yards or more with very minimal fuss.

Another thing that some people don't consider when it comes to the cost of the rifle, is that you have costs in load work-up. I spent wayyyyyyy less money and time finding a good load in the velocity range I wanted to shoot the Whelen than I did when trying to get the same velocity out of the 1/10 twist 30'06. Just food for thought.

Hearing a lot of good comments on the 358 winchester and 35 Whelen. These will be strong considerations along with the 45-70 and 444 marlin.

[outdoorfan]

I forgot to mention that if you can't see yourself shooting much past 100 yards, then a lever gun in a pistol cartridge chambering might be a good option. Even a .357 magnum will fit the bill. The 44 magnum would be an excellent choice. The .444 is a waste (IMO) if the distances are that short.

[vmathias]

I forgot to mention that if you can't see yourself shooting much past 100 yards, then a lever gun in a pistol cartridge chambering might be a good option. Even a .357 magnum will fit the bill. The 44 magnum would be an excellent choice. The .444 is a waste (IMO) if the distances are that short.

The 454 Casull is also an option. Powerful cartridge out to 100-125.

[outdoorfan]

The .454 will reach out quite a bit further than that with authority. The .357, .44, and .45 Colt are powder misers and will have plenty of punch to 100-125 yards (especially the latter two) for deer and bear. Because they are cheaper to feed you will be inclined to shoot them more (practice).