From Trailbosss to Uniquie, OMG, what a difference!

[oldred]

I've been using Trail Boss in .45-70 behind home-cast 405gr bullets...makes a nice 'non-trapdoor exploding' soft-recoil load.

Low pressures????? Have you looked at Hogdon's data for TB in that 45/70? People seem to be making the VERY erroneous assumption that the low velocities automatically mean low pressures and that's simply not true for these big cases with Trail Boss! There are a bunch of loads listed there using other powders that have nearly twice the velocity for the same or even lower pressures, for example,

Trail Boss .458" 485 gr 804 FPS @ 23,300 CUP

vs

Benchmark .458" 485 gr 1503 FPS @ 23,400 CUP

or


IMR 4064 .458" 485 gr 1280 FPS @ 17,400 CUP



TB may be ok for pistol cases loaded to slingshot velocities but for these big rifle cases there are MUCH better choices for both velocity and low pressures!

[30calflash]

I never have used trailboss, probably never will. In the beginning bullseye, Unique and 2400 were the common easy to get and get load data for powders. BE for light loads, unique for medium and 2400 for the full fireworks in a magnum. Others were out there but not at every store that had loading components.

I think the issue might be more one of velocity. Those 600 fps pop gun loads may or may not group well. Most target handgun loads are in the 770 fps range to start and go up from there. Most are under 1000 fps for paper punching. Your Unique load at 1000+ is probably why it groups better. JMHO.

[jhickdog]

I was wondering if anyone can help me out on this as well. I would love to reduce my cost also. I shoot in indoor single shot matches that require low velocity loads. I shoot a Winchester High Wall 1885 38-55. I have been loading a 250 grain cast boolit with 6 grains of Trailboss behind it. I have been getting groups of 1 - 1 1/2" @ 25 yards. I need to keep the velocities low (between 800-900 fps). I also like Unique and have a bit of it, but do not have any information for recommended loads. Would anyone have any recommendations?

[DrCaveman]

I drank the trail boss kook-aid for a little while too, trying it in my 45-70, 30-30, 7.62x39, and 38 spl.

The only one I continue to use it in is 38 spl. Even there, I abandoned the hodgdon rule of 75% case capacity (minus boolit seating) in favor of their listed data. For 148 WC, the range they recommended was slim.. I think 2.3-2.7 gr. Max charge there was not 100% of available space.

I have been loading 2.7 for a few thousand rounds now, and really like it. I stocked up when my local bi-mart had sales of $2 off each can of powder. Since the TB retailed for only $12.99 (9 oz can) I felt it was a pretty good value. It compares pretty well value wise to a load of 2.7 bullseye @ $18 a can. And, load density is better, risk of double charge is naught. Accuracy is better than I can hold, at least up to 15-20 yd range I have tried it. Velocity is around 650.

Yeah it is a bit funky but has its uses.

[TNsailorman]

I don't really see the "either / or" in my case. I load Unique in pistols and I load Trail Boss in my .43 Spanish rolling block. If loaded to lower velocities for cowboy loads, Unique burns only slightly cleaner than soft coal. In both my .45 and .44 loads you can actually dump the not completely burned granules out of the case. Load it up to normal loads and it burns pretty clean. I like Unique and have used a lot of it and will continue to use it in my revolvers. I will continue to use Trail Boss in my blackpowder rifles. It is the only powder that I can get the rolling block loads with both velocity and accuracy. May not work for everybody but it works for me. james

[joec]

That Ranch Dog 290 gr. boolit you mention, Joe, is the most accurate boolit I have EVER shot ina Blackhawk in nearly 40 years of shootin'! Even though it's a TL design, I still put it through my lubesizer and have found that it seems to be enough lube in all those grooves to work just dandy. Haven't tried Lil gun in that caliber/boolit combination, but I ahve used LG in .357 loads. Maybe I'll try that LG with that 290 gr. and see?

All I can say is I shot it close to the limit set by Ranch Dog for the Rossi M92 rifle which is a lot stronger than even a Ruger hand gun. Now I've loaded it sized to .452 using from 23 to 23.5 gr and from 25 to 25.2 gr with Lil'Gun. Now it is dead on accurate as you stated but the recoil at 23.5 to 25.2 is painful unless you have a butt cover for my particular rifle. Mine has the C shaped metal plate design so I had a friend make me a leather with shock absorber material inside. His max load is 25.5 gr so I would start at least 10% below that especially with a hand gun. For the Marlin he only goes to 24 gr of little gun with the same bullet. And again these are rifles.

[oldred]

I'm sure TB has it's uses but it's the misconception about the pressures in the bigger rifle cases that's the potential problem. It could be a mistake when used in an old BP rifle while assuming that because the velocity is low then the pressure must be also, that is certainly not the case. In the 45/70 examples on the Hogdon site it's quite clear that TB can easily exceed BP pressures while producing a good deal less velocity and they list several other loadings that produce far more speed with substantially less pressure so why would TB be a good, or even safe, load for some of these old rifles?

[cdet69]

I have found that some of the so called "old powders" seem to perform better than out modern stuff.

[pls1911]

Except for a few leftovers, I've reduced my powder holding to Unique, and Reloader 7.
I've simplified my bench and stock considerably and can cover all my shotgun and rifle needs very nicely.
Optimum for any? Oh, arguably not, but very good for all.

[retread]

I have used Unique for about everything for years. Good Stuff, however lately I have been trying out Hodgdon Titegroup. For my 45 Acp it has really tightened up my groups. I am also using it with my 45 Colt loads. It is very forgiving for light loads for the wife. Good even combustion for even the lightest loads. Just finished loading some 9mm but haven't got to the range to test those yet.

[curator]

The pressure spike with TB is pretty steep. Not something I am comfortable with when shooting a 140 year old rifle. Black powder has been proven to be a "progressive" burning propellent when properly loaded. The closest smokeless power to black conversion is either SR4759 or IMR 4198 at about 1 to 3 ratio (IE. 25 grains is equal to about 75 grains of FFg Black) Both are lower pressure and higher velocity than Trail Boss loads.

[smkummer]

I got a co-worker friend into loading for a Win. 73 38-40 that was in the family forever. Now alliant publishes unique data with what appears to be SAMMI spec. loads at 12,000 or less. We felt comfortable shooting these in his rifle as he was shooting at the time winchester factory 38-40 ammo. Even the unigue load feels like shooting a overgrown 22LR out of a Win 73 full size rifle. Unique needs to be pushed towards the upper end of recommended loads so as not to soot up the cases with low pressure. 38-40 has thin neck walls that expand easier than 45 Colt. Unique is my choice for full load in 45 colt (SAA pressures) but I have to use red-dot, 700X or 231 if I want cowboy loads in 45 Colt. Unique IS pressure sensitive in 45 Colt. I too bought some trail boss to try out but for myself its only use would be cowboy action shooting with progressive machines.

[Lloyd Smale]

im another that really never had great luck with trail boss.

[Ziptar]

I Love Unique... I am starting to think that a .45 Colt case + 10 Grains of Unique + a 270 SAA Bullet = Everything I could ever need a pistol or a rifle to do.

[TheGrimReaper]

I've been using Trail Boss in .45-70 behind home-cast 405gr bullets...makes a nice 'non-trapdoor exploding' soft-recoil load. The accuracy is really good from an ancient Springfield trapdoor rifle and a Browning 1886 src

I did notice that the published starting loads for Trail Boss in .45-70 with the 405gr bullet weight yielded less accuracy and more 'crud' in the bore. Stepping the charge up to published max and it shoots cleaner and better..These are my plinking loads from the Browning and my main load for the old Springfield.

I too use TB witha 405gr pill in my 1895.....but I might have to give ole Unique a try.

[colt1960]

I do not own trailboss and dont plan on it any time soon. Unique, 2400,Reloader 7, and 3031 pretty much cover my needs.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
First pound of powder I bought after the "pickle suit" was Unique. Cannot imagine being without some. I also like 2400 in the old leverguns. It has less pressure than Unique and burns over a longer period giving the same velocity. Read once that 2400 comes close to matching 3F in pistol cartriges. I do know I like 2400 in my 73's and 92's.
If a boolit is properly fitted to a rifles throat for smokeless then it should shoot well if it has enough RPM. I think many lever guns get a bad rap due to shooters not realizing old BP throats are very much fatter than groove size. This was done so followup cartriges would chamber in a fouled chamber/throat. Plu those old loads had near pure lead boolits that would bump up easily with BP to help fill that air space.
Well anyway do not overlook 2400 . It works well.
Mike in Peru

[saint_iverson]

Aside from lessening the ik of an unnoticed double charge, I still have yet to understand the usefulness of TB... These previous comments further enforce this stance. While my goto isn't Unique, I would use it in a heartbeat if I didn't already have pet loads built for nearly all my applications.

Just my observation... Pressure intensive, volme/compression sensitive while being one of the most highest volume to weight ratio powders to begin with-TB just doesn't seem worth the hassle.

[w30wcf]

....... Does anyone know what kind of velocity a holy black load would produce from this caliber? I would like to know. My brother and I are having a blast (no pun intended) shooting these old rifles. He also has a '73 in .38-40 an it's a peach as well. I've been hoping to add a Winchester or Marling in .25-20 to my collection, if I can find one at a half way decent price that is.

moptop,
Early Winchester catalogs indicate 1,325 f.p.s. for their b.p. cartridge containing 40 grs of b.p.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I agree with pretty much all that has been said about Trail Boss.......except for the accuracy.

In the 44-40, the Hodgdon recommended 6.5 grs shoots better than most other powders I have tried (Unique, 231, etc) for 1,000 f.p.s. loads. It also has produced very good accuracy in "Short Range" .30-30 & 45-70 cartridges (100 & 250 gr) and also 25 Stevens replication loads in the .25-20.

Not too long ago, I tested several different factory 44-40 Cowboy factory loads. Among them was the offering by Hornady. It is loaded with their 200 gr. swagged bullet. After 10 rounds, leading had accumulated in the throat of my Marlin.

Hmmmm...I pulled a few bullets and found that they were .424/.425" diameter, apparently reduced in size from .427 in the loading process. No wonder leading began accumulating in he throat.

Several months ago I had gotten a good buy on 450 of the Hornady 200 gr .44 swagged bullets from a fellow that had bought them for use in a .44 Magnum but found out they did not work well for him.

Anyway, knowing that the fast pressure rise of Trail Boss does have the capability to bump up soft bullets, I loaded the 6.5 gr charge under the .427" diameter (reduced to .424/425 in loading) Hornady bullets.

Here is the result.....throat leading eliminated and accurate shooting.



w30wcf