can someone simplfy some of this info for me please

[btroj]

Yep, no pain no gain. If you aren't willing to lead a few barrels then you aren't learning!

Poor results, leading, and such are not failures, they are merely learning opportunities.

357, I woder how many things have been discovered by someone who wasn't smart enough to know it was impossible?

[brotherdarrell]

Is this a good time to point out that the Savage m12 in .223 rem has a 1:9" twist? Or is there ever a good time to bring 'that' subject up?

brotherdarrell

[canyon-ghost]

Chase, don't you worry one bit. I've been shooting wheelweight for ten years. Gas checks are soft gilding metal, they don't do all that much. Stick with the Lyman books and let somebody else over-analyze how to make lead. I shoot both plain base and gas checked bullets, no problems.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: I have a 41 mag Blackhawk, if it leads, it probably has barrel crush. Barrel crush is where the barrel is threaded to the frame and it's a constriction that will grab lead and string it down the barrel. I use a bronze brush and mineral spirits, then a nylon brush. I'm working on firelapping mine at the minute. My favorite so far is, the Lyman 215 grain gas checked mold and 14.2 grains of 2400. It's not real big on thump like the 220 Keith is but, it's a good everyday load.

[Bob Krack]

Also, please remember that NO critter on the face of this earth will know how fast the projectile - cast OR jacketed was traveling when it missed them.



Bob

[357maximum]

Also, please remember that NO critter on the face of this earth will know how fast the projectile - cast OR jacketed was traveling when it missed them.



Bob

Very valid point.....I have killed alot of deer with some rather anemic rounds, tons with a bow and even with a homemade selfbow/stonetipped shoot arrow.....does not stop one from pushing the envelope to see where the edge of the desk is however.....some just like to play.

[btroj]

Some feel the "need" to go where others haven't gone. That is part of the allure of cast bullet shooting. If it was easy it wouldn't be as fun!

[largom]

I have a little poster in my shop which reads "No man ever became great except through many and great mistakes". Can it be done? Will it work? No one will know until someone try's it.

Larry

[Bullshop]

A while back I set out to see what would be an absolute top end velocity with boolits from a cute little 221 carbine. At the same time I was testing a new lube Lotak on the same line of thought.
Using the NOE copy of the Lyman 225107 a 38gn fngc boolit cast in an alloy of 6 part COWW to 1 part monotype quenched in ice water and pushing the pressure to the point of loosening primer pockets I was able to reach very close to 3700 fps. At that velocity/pressure there was no visable leading but there was also no visable accuracy. I think I was beyond the strength limits of the alloy that tested at bhn-24.
Dropping back the powder charge to give a velocity of 3640 fps I was able to hold right at about 3 moa at 100 yards.
Dropping back still more to about 3500 fps gave me about 2 moa grouping at 100 yards.
I have not yet taken that line of testing further to see at what velocity if any I might get 1 moa accuracy. I have not yet because the reason for testing was to see how fast I could go with useable accuracy not absolute accuracy.
BTW that little 221 has a 1/14" twist. If anyone would like to check up on that I think the thread was titled, " high velocity with usable accuracy" I think.

[runfiverun]

Is this a good time to point out that the Savage m12 in .223 rem has a 1:9" twist? Or is there ever a good time to bring 'that' subject up?

brotherdarrell

it don't matter.
it's just one more thing to deal with.
each rifle is it's own deal you do what's necessary to make each one work.

i have a ruger 223 v/t rifle and a stag arms ar rifle.
i use the same load and such in both of them [they don't share brass however]
but they are both running over 2700 fps.
now the v/t rifle hangs out in the 1/2" range consistently sometimes better sometimes a little worse.
the ar is a 1-1/2" rifle consistently.
is the 1-9 twist to blame for the ar's lesser accuracy?
is the 1-12 in the v/t the reason it's more accurate?
or is it because one is a target rifle and the other is a blast-o-matic.
maybe it's the 12 power scope on the ruger and the 9 power on the stag.

[Finarfin]

Only way to know is to try. If I was going for 3100 fps, I'd go straight WW with about .5% tin added and water drop. That'd be the easy way to start and find out if it works. You might have to go harder with your alloy, maybe even get a little crazy with other hardeners such as copper, arsenic, or whatnot. I'd use a flat point, and on smaller critters think it'd work fine. At that speed and hardness it might fly apart on impact, which could be seen as a good thing on smaller critters.

[mehavey]

If you believe Dick Lee's interpretation of Brinell Hardness Numbers as a measure of materials compressive strength, a skinny bullet w/ a BHN of 25 (about as hard as you can make a quenched cast bullet using common alloys) will start failing on you at ~32,500psi (and whatever velocity that brings).**

I didn't really believe it myself until recently when I began casting up some 200gr 30-06 bullets using true Lyman#2 (exact BHN in my case = 14.9). These theoretically should perform best at ~19,200psi. Calibrating QuickLoad for both case volume & burn rate against published pressure standards for RL-7 (and then IMR4227), Lee's theory was dead on as I climbed the ladder to 19,000psi/1,750fps -- and then beyond where things fell apart again.



** I'm also now a believer in nose slump when pushing long bullets at pressures beyond 90% of their material's compressive stregth. Bullets that would produce 5-shot/1-ragged-hole groups at 50 yards -- would spread to 3-4" at 100yds as wobble took over. Passing through ~19,200psi (or so), however, both powders produced well-behaved 1-1¼" groups at 100yds. It was like watching magic happen.

[brotherdarrell]

[QUOTE=runfiverun;2030175]it don't matter.
it's just one more thing to deal with.
each rifle is it's own deal you do what's necessary to make each one work.


I re-read all the suggestions and I found out:

caliber, bullet design, velocity, and FIT matter.
gun, cartridge and bullet design matter.
alloy, hardness and lube matter.
powder and primer matter.
pressure matters.

twist rate don't matter?

The OP's savage may also have a 26" barrel, does that matter?

I understand the point you were making perfectly well, and agree that the twist rate is just another factor that has to be taken into account. I just found your choice of words a little interesting regarding my pointing out the twist rate of the rifle the OP will be shooting. Personally I hope he achieves his goal as there may be some good lessons learned for all if he does.

And kudos for the 2700 fps in the 1:9 twist. I hope to achieve the same sometime in the future.

brotherdarrell

[mehavey]

Brinell theory (&) QuickLoad agree that 2,950fps is feasible from a cast 55gr bullet in a stock 26" Savage/12 Varminter in 223Rem producing ~ 32,500psi

All it takes is:

- BHN: (an honest) 25
- Gas check
- Lube holding up all the way down the barrel (Liquid Alox, not only coating, but filling the grooves)
- Full case of Accurate 2495
- The caster's personal recipe containing eye of newt, toe of frog, wool of bat, ...and tongue of dog

[Nose Dive]

Yep...best advise is to prevent leading... I have access to obtain and dispose of mercury.

Have leaded some good barrels and rendered them useless. Intentionally. Pistols only.

All mixes of lead..soft..hard..with Tin, zinc, Copper, Aluminum... really, just playing....

Only cleaning that was cleaning was with the mercury which is now 'controlled'. So..don't go to WALMART and ask for some. It takes abit to make it work. It forms an amalgam with lead and comes right out. But, is time consuming, expensive, and now takes Mr. Obama's OSHA documentation. With which, as exposed to some knuckleheads misuse of the material, I agree.

So, here, avoid leading. You have plenty to read in these pages on how to approach avoiding it.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[runfiverun]

FIT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.

gearknasher and myself done a write-up in a thread about 2 weeks ago outlining just about everything needed to make this all work.
i knew nobody would read it.
look for my sticky [something that may help] one of the last 2-3 links in there is the link to the thread 270/30-06 something like that.
anyway,read what we wrote. [it's on page 2 or 3 of the thread airc]
it took us some time and a lot of p.m's back and forth [15 or so] to lay things out in a manner that can be followed.
use that as a guideline to get started [i can guarantee a hard alloy isn't the way to go either]
b.t.w. gear and i are in a friendly competition [more like working together] to hit 2400 fps in our 308's and maintain accuracy.
he is kinda cheating with a 12 twist and a custom reamer.
i am using a 10 twist with a little longer barell,and i have gotten past 2200 fps allready.
we are both basically starting from scratch with new [to us] guns and new molds and are taking two different tact's to see what happens.
same as we have been on doing the lube testing.

[badgeredd]

FIT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.
ABSOLUTELY true...without good fit, I feel one is fighting an uphill battle from the git-go.
use that as a guideline to get started [i can guarantee a hard alloy isn't the way to go either]
This is where Bob's idea of using a 50/50 alloy really gets a guy thinking. A good malleable alloy will beat a HARD alloy...again going back to alloy strength which why a ternary alloy has it's limitations in my mind.
i am using a 10 twist with a little longer barell,and i have gotten past 2200 fps allready.
Dutch4122 achieved some real eye opening "relative" accuracy from his Mosins using a different alloy as the velocity increased. Granted it wasn't benchrest accuracy, but it cut groups to a more realistic battle rifle with iron sights accuracy that is actually usable. Fit was first achieved and then alloy, powder, and velocity could be worked with to get some reasonable results with velocities much closer to jacketed loads for the same guns.
we are both basically starting from scratch with new [to us] guns and new molds and are taking two different tact's to see what happens.
same as we have been on doing the lube testing.

gear, r5r, 357maximum,45 2.1, BABore, and several others have said plenty of times one has to hit the balance of all aspects of loading to achieve good accuracy...be it relative to the battle rifle or the target rifle. No single aspect of reloading will get a guy to the best accuracy achievable in any particular firearm without working the balance and particulars of all aspects.

Edd

[MBTcustom]

Misinformation sure makes my head hurt!
Apparently, despite the best efforts of this forum, misconceptions of what causes leading are still running rampant!
Please read this, and put your "beliefs" on the back burner long enough to let it sink in:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ding-explained
Also, there are really good ways to remove leading from your barrel, that do not entail using mercury or other stuff that will add hazard to danger. I simply wrap steel wool around a used bronze brush and take a few strokes down the barrel to clear all the lead in seconds. It helps if you do this at the range so you can get back to shooting and not waste to gas of going home to get your cleaning rod and steel wool and then returning at a later date to continue experimenting. (geez folks sure can make simple things complicated.)

Now, as has been stated by my esteemed associates, Fit is KING!
Get that right, and you have a frame, engine, tires, and a full tank of gas. Now all you have to do is take care of the major details.

[btroj]

Tim, fit is king.

Problem is, define fit. Fit in the throat is good but it changes when the pressure goes up. It includes fit of case in chamber, bullet in neck and neck clearance, fit in throat, and dynamic fit as it goes down the bore. The pressure is changing as the bullet moves. It goes up at first then drops off. How the bullet and lube handle these changes is important.

I had to believe that the "toughness" we gain from small amounts of copper in the alloy is what makes those alloys shoot well as pressure and velocity go up. It holds the rifling well yet can flow just enough to keep a good seal, with the help of decent lube.

Like Edd said, it is all about getting these things balanced for that particular gun. Having a "surplus" in one area won't make up for shortcomings in another. In other words, a really hard bullet won't make up for poor lube or fit. A sloppy chamber is going to make everything a bit tougher.

[runfiverun]

yes.
remember that relaxation point i talked about in the lube threads.
sometimes it's the outside of the barell.
it would be cool to hit the muzzle with low pressure and have the boolit relax just before it got there so it could be cleanly popped out the muzzle.
pushing the peak pressure down the barell a way's really helps everything get started better.
like bass told me.
control the launch and protect the boolit.
oh did i mention protect the boolit.

[btroj]

This is the kind of thread where insight from Bass would be seen. I miss that.

Ok, protect the bullet. Are you speaking of bore condition? Leade angle? Throat concentric? Bullet fits snug enough to fill the throat fully not allowing for unsupported slump?