Who's Jeff Cooper?!?

[Sweetpea]

So I was in the local sportsman's warehouse yesterday doing some legwork for my father as he is planning on purchasing a pistol when he comes to visit next weekend... another fellow was at the counter, asking about calibers, and I brought up Jeff Cooper's views... and the guy working behind the HANDGUN COUNTER had no bloody idea who I was talking about!

Does not instill the utmost confidence!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Not everyone who works at a gas station knows what a distributor cap is either. Maybe he is just another of those who are still learning about the firearms world.
As a young feller growing up in Riverside, Michigan I would not have know the correct answer. Not until I was a NRA member did that name become part of my circle of knowledge.
Mike in ILL.

[Reg]

A lot of people just do not understand history. Quite often there is a path from point A to point B and quite often it has been blazed by someone. Jeff C of course, was one of those who blazed the way and made the path. Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith, Charles Askins, Jack O'Conner and many, many others all laid the ground work to what we call the shooting sports that we have today.
The same yokel might also not have any idea of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine as well.
No doubt a product of our modern education system.

[Sweetpea]

A lot of people just do not understand history.
No doubt a product of our modern education system.

This gentleman was probably 10 years my senior (40ish) and was working selling people handguns.

If you do not research good qualities and bad, how can you possibly try to sell something without sounding like an idiot?

I do not work in the industry at all, but I try to read anything of value that I can get a hold of.

[btroj]

I shoot some handgun. I know who Jeff Cooper was but don't really care. I wasnt a worshipper of him at all.

I never asked my PH in Africa if he knew who Capstick or Ruark are. Didn't matter, he knew his business and that is what mattered.

Not all shooters read gun rags. I rarely read anything where Coer might have been published. Never read his stuff. Never followed him. And now I discover it means I don't know dirt about handguns. Oh well.

[Sweetpea]

And now I discover it means I don't know dirt about handguns. Oh well.[/QUOTE]

Wow! That was a jump!



I would postulate that no other man save John Moses Browning has done more to contribute to the advancement of semi auto pistols.

I would think somebody in the business of selling them would have heard of him.

[wrench man]

If you do not research good qualities and bad, how can you possibly try to sell something without sounding like an idiot?

Sure you weren't at Cabela's?

[darkroommike]

So I was in the local sportsman's warehouse yesterday doing some legwork for my father as he is planning on purchasing a pistol when he comes to visit next weekend... another fellow was at the counter, asking about calibers, and I brought up Jeff Cooper's views... and the guy working behind the HANDGUN COUNTER had no bloody idea who I was talking about!

Does not instill the utmost confidence!

Here's the thing, I used to sell camera, camera salesmen, as a rule, do not know that much about photography, they study cameras. Same thing, gun sales, new guns are introduced all the time, to be a good gun salesman you need to stay on top of your product and availability.

And to sell guns, you have to sell the guns in your case rather than get into endless debates with "lookie lou's" that are killing time while the wife is getting a perm. Cooper, Keith, Wheelan and the guns they used are not going to be the guns I need to sell today to put meat on my table. It's possible that the salesman is very knowledgeable about Jeff Cooper but also very experienced about what happens if he gets deflected from his job into a discussion about gun gurus.

[brstevns]

You forgot Pete Brown and Skeeter Shelton

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

It would be interesting to work in a firearms retail store where there are no used items in stock. If you have been in retail very long, you should know that used firearms are where the store makes the most money. To maximizer ROI you need to be able to evaluate firearms based on history as well as condition. You also need to be able to evaluate the potential customer standing in front of you. If they want to talk about Cooper, you should be able to as well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is true that knowledge of the past is not necessarily needed to do a job, but it certainly can enhance your ability to do that job.

Unfortunately this concept is being lost in schools. Just as the history of our country is being modified to suit whatever agenda is being promoted.

The cream rises to the top and there will always be people who have a superior level of knowledge about certain things. The problem really becomes being able to figure out who actually knows what they are talking about and who is FOS.

Randy

[btroj]

If you expect to go into a gun store and find a person who is knowledgable on everything then you are a fool.

It is a job. These stores hire people to sell something. They aren't there to be experts on every person who has ever been an "expert" on a subject.

I don't read Cooper's work because I don't care to. I just don't get excited over the self defense writings. I am not a huge fan of heavily loaded 1911s. I don care how you are supposed to carry a 1911. Just doesn't matter to me.
What I do want to know is how to make a 1911 shoot. I want load data for cast bullets. I would far rather read info from a bullseye shooter. I bet most bullseye shooters aren't real up to speed on Cooper either but they sure know how to make a 1911 shoot.

It comes down to what interests each person. A guy Ina gun shop may be a pheasant hunter or trap shooter. He doesn't know about Cooper but he knows his shotguns. Does that make him incapable of selling handguns?

The days of a gun shop being run by fun fanatics are done. Particularly large shops. The people who work there have a job. It doesn't mean they are experts on any area related to shooting.

I don't go to Menards and expect to find a professional carpenter. I don't go to the automotive section at Walmart and expect to find a master mechanic. Why would I expect the guy at Scheels selling guns to be a gun expert in a specific area? Or in all areas?

[Sweetpea]

btroj, I am more than willing to discuss why we should expect quality knowledge from people selling us something.

If I take my gun to a smith to have some work done, I want to know that he knows what he is doing and talking about.

If you are just going to get immediately offended, or insult people, feel free not to respond.

[btroj]

The guy at Cabelas selling guns has a job selling guns. He may not even own any firearms.

While I would love itif they were knowledgable I have grown to not expect it. I have learned ove the years expecting people to be truly experts on things is a good way to be disappointed.

For years I had large numbers of tropical fish. While one shop had an owner who was passionate about fish most large shops had employees who just had a job. They may have had a small tank with common fish but I quickly learned not to expect much from them.

As for going to a gunsmith, I expect him to know his job. I want him to be able to make things work. I do not expect a 1911 expert to be able to resolver a pair of barrels for an old double.

We all have specific areas of knowledge. While we all would like to think we are in the norm more often than not we are not. Most shooters who are aware of Cooper probably are more dangerous with that knowledge than without it. They are more likely to be mall ninjas that true afficianados who truly grasp what he was saying.

You went to a mass merchandising store. They hire whoever applies. Knowledge isn't a requirement. Actually, lots of gun knowledge is a detriment as that might cost extra money. These guys aren't making big bucks and I bet turnover can be high. If they aren't truly in the know I would prefer they not know much. Nothing is worse than someone who doesn't know but thinks he does. I don't want smoke blown up my rectal orifice by some mall ninja.

I agree it would be nice if they were competent. I would love it. Sadly, we all want low prices and that means low pay. Low pay means we get the knowledge level we pay for. Many of us here would pay more for the knowledge but we aren't the norm in gun buyers. Most gun buyers know less than the guy you ran into. Now that ought to frighten you!

I

[Sweetpea]

btroj, thank you.

I understand your point of view, and why things are the way they are... it just doesn't make it right.

[gandydancer]

Times gone by. Dust in the wind. years from now who will know or care? ask a 20 year old who Roy Rogers was? and your answer will be "Roy who?" GD

[Hamish]

sweetpea, I am hard pressed to see where bt got offended or insulted anyone. And just because you don't see it his way does not make him wrong.

[Sweetpea]

And just because you don't see it his way does not make him wrong.

I agree. He just has a different opinion.

Maybe you skipped his earlier posts. The latest one was polite and concise. And appreciated.

I am not asking for everybody to agree with me. That would be boring.

[btroj]

I didn't intend to be insulting at all.

I just don't expect to get a person who knows much about guns when I go to a gun shop. Matter of fact, I prefer they know nothing. I hate experts who don't know diddly.

I will say I don't think a guy knowing who Cooper is makes him incapable of having knowledge. Cooper was a guy who was more a proponent of firearm usage than loading or technical skill. He also has a very specific area of concern. Not many outside the CCW or combat arenas are likely to be a follower. I never read the gun rags he tended to write for so I actually know very little about him. While I am no expert on handguns I probably know more than most big box gun sop employees.

Times have a changed boys. We don't have long time gun nuts working in gun shops anymore. The guys working there are after a pay check. It is a job, not a passion.

Bet the knowledge level at most gun shows isn't much better but the BS level is much higher!

[Sweetpea]

While I am no expert on handguns I probably know more than most big box gun sop employees.

Bet the knowledge level at most gun shows isn't much better but the BS level is much higher!

btroj, I guess this is pretty much my original point. I expect to ask questions and learn, but when I have to educate the "pros" that just seems wrong. Not just about Cooper, I used that as an easily recognizable reference. When it seems that they don't know the difference between a 1911 and a glock, there is a problem.

I will do my best in the future to patronize the "mom and pops" stores more.