I need help on a couple of rifles

[3006guns]

Well, I've heard of it....but not in reference to the .303 but the 6.5 Swede! According to a European article I read years ago, long bullets in the Swedish rifles were not particularly accurate until they reached about 200 meters, where they "stabilized" (went to sleep).

Not saying this is the problem here. I was just surprised, given the high praise heaped on the Swedish rifles overall.

[swheeler]

Well, I've heard of it....but not in reference to the .303 but the 6.5 Swede! According to a European article I read years ago, long bullets in the Swedish rifles were not particularly accurate until they reached about 200 meters, where they "stabilized" (went to sleep).

Not saying this is the problem here. I was just surprised, given the high praise heaped on the Swedish rifles overall.

I don't think there is a 6.5 bullet long enough to not stabilize in that 1;7.8 twist(unless your under 1500 fps) but instead are reffering to exactly what I described, giving that long wobbly enough time to go to sleep from being overstabilized.

[Beekeeper]

SWHeeler,
It isn't the scope!!
It isn't the rings.
It isn't the base.
All were installed by a competent 06 who did the drill and tap for me.
Each time the scope was changed he did it.
It still comes down to the boolit or bullet not stabilizing until it gets past 300 yards!
In your post you said I was probably running the scope in and out too much.
It is a Leupold Target scope designed to be run in and out so that is not the problem.

Anyway one more trip to the range with them and then I find something else to do and send them somewhere to get new barrels later on in the year when I have some extra funds, that is if the Governor and the state leave me any .
Why is it democrats never saw a tax they didn't like?


beekeeper

[swheeler]

oh OK

[MBTcustom]

Why is it democrats never saw a tax they didn't like?

Because poor folks need big government.

Not to keep harping on the equipment, (I know you are sick of it at this point) but I want to mention that I spent a lot of money on components when I couldn't get a rifle of mine to shoot for beans. I had a Leupold scope on it! (BTW I too am an 07 FFL) I tried everything to no avail. I kept having ignorant fellers tell me that it might be the scope and I ignored them because it was a Leupold and since I paid so much money for it, that makes scope failure crazy talk. Well, just to be sure, and because I needed a cheap scope on my .22, I bought a cheap bushnell sharpshooter for $65 at the local gunshop. I swapped it out with the Leupold, and got tiny groups right off the bat!!!
Fortunately, Leupold replaced/repaired the scope in time for deer season, but I will never assume that something I didn't personally make is infallible ever again.
Just saying.

[725]

What about heat in the barrel? Does the group tighten when the barrel is hot as opposed to cool. Very strange.

[UBER7MM]

Beekeeper,

1/14" is a relatively slow twist for a 30 cal. rifle. So you'll need a relatively short bullet/boolit and or a relatively fast velocity to stablize the projectle. Of course, only experimentation will give you the answer. How does this Mauser shoot the dreaded j-words?

I once had a new 7mm barrel in 1/10" twist that just wouldn't group 160 grain cast boolits. It wouldn't group 160 grain j-words well either at the velocities I desired. However, I could get great groups with 140 grain j-words. I developed a load with the 140 j-words and stopped experimenting with that gun. The one option I didn't investage was a shorter cast boolit. But in that case, I decided that gun was a 140 grain j-word only shooter and I was done tinkering.

If you want a cast load for your Mauser, you might try a shorter (lighter) 30 cal boolit such as a 30 carbine/AK boolit (130 grains) to see if you get better results. (Assuming you don't have a throat issue.)

I hope this helps,

[Beekeeper]

Goodsteel,
Unfortinuately this is the 3rd scope on this particular rifle and the second on the twin of it.
I do not think the problem would be the exact same in 3 scopes ( all new by the way) do you?

Like I said one more trip to the range and then break down to pieces and get a new barrel on both later in the year if Obama and Governor Moon Beam leave me any money.


beekeeper

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel,
Unfortinuately this is the 3rd scope on this particular rifle and the second on the twin of it.
I do not think the problem would be the exact same in 3 scopes ( all new by the way) do you?

Uh no, I would definitely say not. I wish you were closer, I would love to take one of those rifles courting. They certainly do sound like a serious challenge.

[swheeler]

Beekeeper; as I offered in the pm to you, which you have not replied to??? I would pay the shipping costs for one of your Israeli junk barrels sent to me, I mean if you are convinced they are totally worthless you wouldn't try to sell them to some innocent, would you? Let me know

[pilot]

I'm still trying to figure out how a bullet of any kind can get off to a bad start and magically get back in line at longer range. In other words, I've never seen a group get smaller at longer range.

[Jim]

I'm still trying to figure out how a bullet of any kind can get off to a bad start and magically get back in line at longer range. In other words, I've never seen a group get smaller at longer range.

I discussed this phenomena with a friend that has been shooting long range for decades. He has seen it himself, but doesn't understand how bullets can stray and then regroup, as it were, at a greater distance. He has a custom built triple deuce that he shoots P-dogs with in Montana every year. He said the group opens to minute of cantelope at 4 to 500 yds and then regroups to minute of P-dog head at 600 and past. I don't get it, but how can you contradict evidence?

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

I seriously doubt bullets really do that. It is perception and not reality; generally based on limited results. What we have read in the past is based on writings such as Kieth and others who most often referred to 3 shot groups. We know that a 3 shot group is not valid and can easily give misleading results based on random dispersion. Overs the years in competative shooting I've heard talk of the "bullets go to sleep and shoot smaller groups" theory. However when comparing the groups from their score books of 200, 300, 600 yards and 100 and 200 yards from reduced NMC or even with mini Palma's at 300, 500 and 600 or the real Palma at 800, 900 and 1000 yards we find that with statiscally valid 10, 15 or 20 shot strings that the groups do not get smaller as the range increases. Now the phenomanon that some bullets can and do "go to sleep" is a fact (not nearly as often as some would have us believe) but that groups (read that "accuracy" as in the linear dispersion of the group size) actually get smaller as the range gets larger? No, that is a perception based on insufficient data.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

There are several reasons for tighter groupings at longer ranges, at least as measured in MOA rather than actual spread in inches.
One is barrel compensation. The slower bullet leaving the muzzle on the upswing of barrel vibration, while the faster bullet leaves on the downswing. The slower bullet may print higher at close range , while the fast bullet prints at the lower level which is generally the lowest the barrel can move in the bedding.
For the SMLE the sweet spot for convergence was between 600 and 800 yards.

Bullets do yaw as they leave the muzzle and settle down a bit further out. Sometimes the degree of yaw can be ridiculous if the muzzle is badly worn out of round.
Once yaw has settled down the bullet won't try to curve to one side and inertia should bring the nose back into line with the intended line of flight.
This close range yaw, with osilation of the projectile point, is why .30 AP bullets penetrate a great deal better at 200 yards than at 50 yards.
Bullet throw can be induced by flexing of a receiver or action body. This throw is to the side opposite the ejection opening, that opening being where the action is weakest.

The Springfield 03 throws the bullet a small fraction of an inch to the left at the muzzle, then spin drift draws the bullet back into line with the bore, converging at aprox 600 yards when 150 gr Ball is used.
Past 600 yards spindrift draws the bullet to the right of the bore line, drift increasing as velocity drops but rate of spin remains high. The long range ladder sights lean increasingly to the left to compensate.

PS
Despite the Compensation factor of the SMLE when using the .303 the British never won another Palma match (so long as each competing team used its own home country's standard infantry rifle) after the U S adopted the 1903 rifle and .30-06 cartridge. The Enfield just wasn't as accurate at any range.
The LE Range Rifles had more than held their own till the Springfield came along.
In later matches the host country would supply the home court military rifles to each team, so there was no competition between rifle types or cartridges.

[swheeler]

Well I am back from the range and have even more questions than I did to start.

Data first
Isreali Mausers
1-14 twist barrels
Barrels read .3095 groove .302 lan at breech and ..309groove and .302 lan at muzzle
Hornady Match Brass
CCI LR primers
32 GR. IMR 3031 1/2 gr tuft of dacron
Lyman 311466 boolits sized .309, .311, and .312
Lee C312 150-1R sized to 311 and 309
copper gas checks and Bens red lube

At 100 yards couldn't hit the inside of a barn from the inside.
At 200 yards about a 4 foot circle.
At 400 yards about a 2 foot circle
At 465 yards I am able to hold about a 1 foot circle.
No amount of fiddling with the scope makes any changes in the above , You just moved it somewhere else.

I think the barrels refuse to shoot well at anything less than 450 yards! Is this possible?
I have tried everything I can even think of and most of what my shooting partners can think of and still come up in the negative.
And rhat is a considerable ammount of ideas.

Would appreciate any constructive ideas anyone has.
Before I start to tear them down and throw them away or rebarrel to something else.



beekeeper

This is not "going to sleep" more like going into a coma! Something else going on here. I still will pay shipping to get this barrel to me, color me curious.

[swheeler]

Jim

I seriously doubt bullets really do that. It is perception and not reality; generally based on limited results. What we have read in the past is based on writings such as Kieth and others who most often referred to 3 shot groups. We know that a 3 shot group is not valid and can easily give misleading results based on random dispersion. Overs the years in competative shooting I've heard talk of the "bullets go to sleep and shoot smaller groups" theory. However when comparing the groups from their score books of 200, 300, 600 yards and 100 and 200 yards from reduced NMC or even with mini Palma's at 300, 500 and 600 or the real Palma at 800, 900 and 1000 yards we find that with statiscally valid 10, 15 or 20 shot strings that the groups do not get smaller as the range increases. Now the phenomanon that some bullets can and do "go to sleep" is a fact (not nearly as often as some would have us believe) but that groups (read that "accuracy" as in the linear dispersion of the group size) actually get smaller as the range gets larger? No, that is a perception based on insufficient data.

Larry Gibson

Larry I do believe you you are probably correct and what I have witnessed was in fact 3 shot groups at 100 and 300 yards.

[I'll Make Mine]

One possible cause of shooting better (at least, smaller MoA dispersion) groups at longer ranges might be the psychological effect of aiming spot size. Generally, we all shoot better when aiming at a smaller appearing target, as long as we can still see the target well (i.e. sight doesn't cover it completely or some such). If the same size target is used at various ranges, rather than scaled aiming spots that get larger with longer range, this might well lead a shooter to shoot similar physical size groups at longer ranges (thus smaller dispersion angle), at least out to whatever range the aiming spot gets too small.

In other words, without seeing the targets that were used, one can't say whether it has anything at all to do with the bullets, vs. the shooter.

[Chicken Thief]

Here's something that i might be the first to notice?

The original military stocks were toast so I made new ones.
My stocks were originally Manlicher stocks with 2 lbs upward pressure on the tips.
Didn't work so cut them back to normal sporter stocks and put 8 lbs pressure on the barrel using card stock so I could remove it if needed.
Made no diference at all.
The receiver is 100 % glass bedded and the barrels are free floated with the exception of the card stock pressure points.
All receiver screws are tight and locked with locking screws.
Receivers were pillar bedded to ensure no movement

I had a Ruger 77MKII in 22-250 that would shoot fine for most of the time.
Then all of a sudden throw shots into 3-5 "seperate" groups. When i checked the barrel it had umpteen pressure points due to moisture rasing dimples in the barrel "channel" in the forestock.

How 'bout you throw an old military stock on one and see if that changes anything before buying new fence posts for both your guns?

[Chicken Thief]

Just checked.
A 1" boolit will be plenty stable from a 14" twist

[John Boy]

Beekeeper, obviously the bullets are not 'going to sleep' until they are in the 400+ yd range. Betcha to 500 - 600yds the groups will tighten up.

OK, you've done alot to resolve the grouping issue...
* Only way to determine if the throat is an issue is a chamber cast
* Before you do the chamber cast, loads the rounds out with a longer COL and the round needing to be thumbed into the chamber to close the action with nose engraved by the leading bore cuts
* If the throat is long and your loading SAMMI COL, good possibility the bullet is jumping the throat and does not have good concentricity down the bore and out to 400 yds before it does settle down and goes to sleep