I've got a New Vaquero with pretty tight .451 throats and grooves at .450 (cylinders .480, lands .442). Loaded some MP 270 SAA bullets that were given to me, which I think I sized at .451, but were probably a tad over. Anyway, mostly the rounds chambered, but some wouldn't set in all the way (this using trimmed, min oal brass) and I could only tell when the cylinder bound while loading. My point being if you cut the fit margins too thin the weapon might get unreliable.
Sam
I sure agree, always a margin for safety and function.
Hate is like drinking poison and hoping the other man dies.
*Cohesiveness* *Leadership* *a common cause***
***In a gunfight your expected to be an active participant in your own rescue***
The effective range of an excuse is ZERO Meters
Cases should last forever. A 45 Colt gun done right for a change. ... felix
felix
I've been sorely tempted to buy a .44 Magnum cylinder for my New Vaquero and have it bored with a .45 Colt reamer that had the flutes ground down to about .476".
Gear
Not being equipped or capable of doing that kind of work myself, I found it cheaper and much quicker to sell the Blackhawk and buy a Freedom Arms than to farm out the work necessary to give the Blackhawk tight chamber dimensions.Originally Posted by geargnasher
-ktw
I was pleased when I measured it up. Lucked out. Of course, I still find stuff to change about it, and am displeased with the moulds I have that drop bigger than I'd like. Can't win.
Sam
I'm not sure if you are not understanding me, or I'm not understanding you, so I'll assume that I'm the one not getting it and try to explain. I dropped a pin into the barrel to determine whether there was a choke point at the point that it threads into the receiver. I'm aware that this tells me nothing at all about the groove diameter, which is of secondary importance to me as compared to the cylinder throat diameters. Had I found a choke point at any part of the barrel, I would know that I would eventually approach that issue with fire lapping.
Based on my understanding of how these things are supposed to work, bullets should be sized to fit the throats, which is what I aspire to do here. As the throats on this gun will all swallow a .455 pin, a .454 bullet would most likely work a lot better than one of .452 or even .453, but as I don't buy cast bullets since I began casting, and as I do not have a mould that will cast a .45 Colt bullet over about .4525, a new or good used mould that will drop bullets at or about .456 is what I intend to get and use, so as to size them to .455.
I appreciate your response to my questions!
There is some ammo and more ammo. There is never enough ammo!
That's true. I just had the results show up with my found boolits from under the bench. They were way too soft at 10 BHN and I would shoot a nice group with a flier or two but not real bad. The next day I sprayed the target, then I would shoot another decent group.
I had just tumbled the brass and I looked down in the container of brass on the floor and I could see crimp left. Over half had crimp, almost as much as I started with. That is when I checked the BHN.
All that is needed is to toughen the boolits so they iron the crimp. No need to go super hard, just enough.
I have a new batch to test that has reached 20 BHN in a few days.
I do get stubborn but it is for a reason. I have no other explanation for spraying a target like a shotgun.
No problem, you will be OK. I like to know groove size though. You might have better then you guess at.
I was trying to say that you CAN shoot boolits under throat as long as they are a little over groove. Then to go over throat will still shoot but you will size the boolit and maybe remove grease grooves and lube before entering the bore.
The idea is to never do more damage to the boolit then you do in a size die. Over sizing is always damage even if it is beyond the throats and in the rifling. To take a .455" boolit to .451" at the cone and bore will also wipe off GG's and you will run out of lube.
I make my boolits with .025" GG's but a TL boolit can have only .010".
Now add in any sizing/scraping from a crimp that does not fully open. Use the wrong alloy and you might shoot a much smaller boolit right out of the brass and have to depend on slump for fit. What happens if the crimp left makes the boolt smaller then groove?
I sound crazy to many fellas. The revolver needs a balance that I want you to think about. Just a balance, not going crazy with theories or what each of us says because none is written in stone. I give ideas as do all others here for you to figure out.
I only relate things I found that failed for me and things that worked. You are the final determination for your gun.
Yet you can shoot stuff that should never work. I shoot .430" boolits from .4324" throats and a .430" groove all the time. I also shoot many .432" boolits and darned if one is better then the other.
It is THE OTHER STUFF you need to think on. Take everything you read here and sit and stare at your bench, leave the press alone. Imagine the boolit and what happens. Sort things out and try them.
I want to show what way under throat can do. This boolit is .430" from a .430" groove, .4324" throat at 200 yards. I was doing a drop test and had the 3 shots in 1-5/16", the 50 yard group was 3/4" with the RD 265 gr.
I want you to see that it is you, not one thing you feel is important and that it is a balance of all things. You are looking for one answer to solve all.
The best cast boolit shooters on earth are right here and I feel you are only looking at one thing, hoping for the best.
Last edited by 44man; 07-12-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Cadillo –
I’ll tell you right now that I don’t have the answer to your question, but I do have a Colt SAA in 45 Colt that has the same problem. My throats are .456”, miked with a cerrosafe casting. I don’t have the figure in front of me, but I believe I have a slug from the barrel that is .451”.
When I first bought the gun (new), I shot a bunch of Winchester Silver-tips through it because they shot so well. I used those empty cases to load up some Lyman 452423 cast in air cooled COWW sized to .452”. The accuracy of the cast loads started off bad and just got worse.
I checked the barrel and there was the worst leading I’d ever seen just beyond the forcing cone. Even a Lewis Lead remover couldn’t get all of the lead out. I ended up buying a Foul-out to get it clean.
I don’t own pin gauges, so I haven’t checked for a constriction at the barrel threads, but I know that is a possible cause for the leading. I also feel that there may have been some fouling from the Silver-Tips that could have contributed to the leading. The Silver-Tips have an aluminum jacket and I have no idea how that mixes in with cast bullet dogma, but it’s probably not good and it’s surely no help.
The path I have chosen for now is to shoot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets through it in hopes to break in the barrel a bit, and to thoroughly clean the copper out before shooting lead again. I have also purchased a couple of 454 moulds (which I have not yet used) to follow the “size your boolit to the throat” axiom as best as I can. One of the moulds is a gas check model, so I’ll try that, too.
If you are still looking for a .456” mould, Lee makes a 220 grain number for the Ruger Old Army.
http://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-456-220-1r.html
I have this mould for my ROA, but I haven’t tried it in the Colt, yet. I may do it someday.
So anyhow, you’re not alone in this, Cadillo. My problem is similar and I’ve laid out what my next steps are. I’m no expert and I’m just trying a few things that I think might help. Unfortunately (or fortunately, actually) I’m one of those guys with more guns and moulds than time, so I’m easily distracted from loading projects and it takes me a while to get to the bottom of things.
By the way, can you tell me where you got the pin gauges? I’m interested in getting some.
Jeff
I have a couple of options, one of which is that I have a couple of NEW second generation cylinders in .357 mag and .38 spcl. Maybe I can trade one for a good condition third generation cylinder in like caliber that I can have bored and fitted to my 3rd generation SAA .45 Colt. I'll just take my time and study the various routes I can take.
Regarding pin gauges, I have no good answer. I bought one set from Grizzly Tool Co.. They were badly out of spec, and after the most difficult and trying business transaction of my fifty-eight years on this planet, I finally got a refund for that junk.
I REALLY wanted a good set, so finally ordered a set from an outfit called Thread Check. They are nice, and I have yet to find a fault among the various 250 pcs of the set, though I have mic'd only a few. Those few have been spot on. The price though is steep. I paid $220.00 plus freight, which is a high tariff, but worth it to me, as I consider frustration and wear and tear on my **** to be worth a lot of money. I am very happy with my expensive but quality purchase, and have already used them to good effect.
I'm just learning that there are so many uses for the things. I should have bought these years ago, but just learned about them. Pin gauges and a mic are must have items for a caster and loader.
Too soon old, too late smart!
There is some ammo and more ammo. There is never enough ammo!
I tried the harder boolit yesterday and there was an improvement, groups rounded out and every load I tried shot the same. They equal the 320 LBT WLNGC.
I really should have made it with 2 GG's instead of one large one. Oh well, future boolit with a PB. I do not want to send for GC's!
I don't think NEW VAQUEROS come in 44 magnum, maybe 44 specials, BUT RUGER won't sell cylinders, barrels or main frames as parts IIRC. Again, IIRC, the cylinders in various calibers are also different lengths. I've bought several Orignal Size VAQUEROS in 357 for the base gun in other calibers in the future. BOWEN CLASSIC ARMS, ALPHA PRECISION and other big name gunsmiths offer custom cylinders, BUT they don't exactly give them away.
When S&W came out with the model 25-? in 45 LONG COLT, there was quite a bit of discussion and complaining about cylinder throats around .455/456 and barrels of .452 groove. The solution was a .454 boolit and relatively soft alloy and loads in the SAA pressure levels.
HANDLOADER has had some recent articles about chamber dimensions in 45 COLT and how to compensate. Editor Scovill is a 45 fancier.
It's a d*** poor day I don't learn something useful here or on the other sites that I frequent.
Pin/Plug Gauges are also available from the following vendor:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PMPXNO=951510
I have set of these "imported" gauges and find them to be very accurate. I haven't checked all of them, just the pistol calibers I use. My Mitutoyo micrometer is in full agreement with the diameter indicated on each gauge.
They were reviewed by Mike Venturino some time back in Handloader magazine.
The price has increased quite a lot since I purchased mine, about 5 years ago, but then what hasn't.
My Bisley BH in 45 Colt came with VERY undersized throats, and wasn't much fun at the range--it was a One Bullet Wonder (#454490). After a few years of that drag, I borrowed one of the throat reamer kits and re-cut the throats to .4525" and polished them out to a true .453". (Grooves are .452", bore I haven't tried or can't recall). I size boolits to .454", and all designs now shoot from decently to EXTRAORDINARILY, plain base--bevel base--or gas checked. 200 grains to 325 grains.
The tungsten-carbide sizer die in my 45 Colt die set (RCBS) greatly over-reduced case diameters of my brass. (It is well-nigh perfect for 45 ACP. though). I swapped it for a steel sizer die, and life got a lot better all at once. No more partial-FL-sizing needed to save brass from over-working.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
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