tell me what I don't want to hear-- lead too soft?

[pcarpenter]

I got my new NOE 316299 mold the other day and promptly went out and started making bullets after normal cleanup and a few heat cycles. It made nice bullets and I was excited to get to sizing and loading. I still need to make myself a .316 sizer die to deal with the big throat and groove diameter in my Lee Enfield.

I cast some Lee 155 grain .312's to use in a Swiss K31 at the same time and forced one through a .308 die yesterday. I know I need to lap that out to about .309something, but I was sad to see that the noses were "bumped" out substantially. I made a nose punch yesterday that fits better, as a possible solution, but decided to check bullet hardness too. Sadly, I figured out that the lead I used was way softer than I thought. I remember that it was ingots of supposedly clip on wheel weights that I bought quite some time back off ebay. I remember remarking to myself that it must have actually included a lot of stick-ons too. Sadly, I remebered that *after* I cast up a big pile of both bullets.

These are about a BHN 8 according to my Lee tester....just over dead soft. They will get gas checks, but I assume these are still too soft for rifle use...even at "the load" type velocities (16gr 2400). I don't have a *lot* of experience with cast bullets in rifles. I've loaded water quenched wheel weights in the 8mm Mauser with gas checks and later read that the water quench was probably not necessary so this batch are not even quenched. Plus, with not much antimony in them, they probably would not harden much anyway. I did add a bit of tin for fill-out.

So.....do I need to dump them all back in the pot, alloy them up with some lino I have around and start over? I'd rather think I wasted my time casting them than to go to the additional trouble to load them and kill an hour cleaning up a nasty leaded bore.

thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!
Paul

[AnthonyB]

Only way to tell is to shoot them and see. IMO, casters tend to overcomplicate things, and this ain't rocket science.
Tony

[RU shooter]

Id load up 20 of them with that 16 grs of 2400 you mentioned and see what happens. They maybe just fine at that pressure level.

[williamwaco]

I prefer around 9 to 10 BNH for those types loads. If the bullet fits, they will be fine. If it doesn't fit BNH 22 will not work either.

I use the soft stuff for handguns up to about 1600 fps.

[largom]

Your boolits will be much softer the day you cast them. Wait 4 weeks for them to "age harden". Sizing before age hardening will bump up the nose of soft boolits. This applies to air cooled boolits.

Larry

[excess650]

Try a Lee ''nose first" push through sizer so as to not bump the noses. Too, If you HAD water dropped your boolits, more than likely they would have hardened to 15bhn in 3-5 days.

My own mix of choice is low on antimony and water dropped. Freshly cast, mine are around 12bhn and harden to around 18bhn in 3-5 days.

Low antimony isn't a bad thing. Too much antimony will make for brittle boolits.

Cast another batch of boolits and water drop them. Use your hardness tester on each batch every couple of days and note how quickly, and to what level they harden.

[303Guy]

... more than likely they would have hardened to 15bhn in 3-5 days.

So I quickly went and test my castings of a few days ago and indeed, the first one was harder but the second was softer. Go figure! (I don't have a calibrated hardness tester so I don't know the actual values)

[Bret4207]

Your boolits will be much softer the day you cast them. Wait 4 weeks for them to "age harden". Sizing before age hardening will bump up the nose of soft boolits. This applies to air cooled boolits.

Larry

Excellent advice. They take about 3 weeks to reach full Bhn. Thing is, they may shoot just fine before that if they fit the gun and load. Try a few and see.

[pcarpenter]

My concern was that with this alloy being so soft that it would behave more like a lead-tin alloy (absent some antimony) and they *age soften*

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

"Key Points of The Article"

"Lead-tin alloys age soften quickly."

I thought I might bank on the presence of at least some antimony (plus the tin I added for fillout) and heat treat them at say 425 for a while and then water quench. It doesn't cost much to try and I don't risk leading up a barrel I just got meticulously clean in a new (new to me) rifle (trying to make sure there was not a trace of copper).

In general, I agree with all the advice given--they don't really need to be on the hard end of the scale, especially at the velocities I am going to shoot them. I was just disappointed when I realized what I had used and that they turned out to be about BHN 8. They definitely do need to fit the bore which is why I bought the 316299 in the first place. Now I need to make a sizer die that will leave them that large for the Lee Enfield

thanks to all for taking the time to respond with help. I'm just trying not waste several hours of casting time!
Paul

[Larry Gibson]

If those are straight COWWs then take it as a lesson learned and throw them back into the pot. Add 2% tin to the COWWs. That will make a much better lead/tin/antimony alloy that will have a BHN of 14-17 with 16-17 being the most prevailent. That alloy will be very similar to Lyman's #2 alloy and can be used from very low velocityies to 2000+ fps. Let the new cast bullets with that alloy age harden for 10+ days before sizing or using if you AC them. You can also WQ the bullets from the mould and up the BHN to 22-26 after 48 hours. The WQ'd cast bullets are useable at 48 hours.

As mentioned if you measure the BHN right after casting they will be soft. Let them age harden and then measure. I suggest .311 sizing for your .30 cal rifle cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

+1 on air cooled wwts with a touch of tin. Works for most applications.

Bill

[sqlbullet]

+1 on WilliamWaco about fit.

You could also look to a slower powder that might be a little more gentle on the boolit base during "acceleration".

If there is some antimony in them, you might try heat treating a small batch in the oven to 450° and then quenching them to see if that gets them up where you want them.

And as has been mentioned, if all else fails, a little tin will make a huge difference.

[pcarpenter]

I appreciate all the advice. The trouble here is that the alloy is not what I thought I was buying...it's *not* all clip-on wheel weights as the seller represented or I wouldn't have ended up at a BHN of 8. It was Ebay lead I bought a good while back and I remembered *after* I used some this time that it must have had a *lot* of stick-on weights in with them. I should never have stamped this stuff "WW" as it lead to confusion that is going to mean I wasted valuable casting time.

What I was hoping was that someone would say "oh yeah, no problem.....I've shot gas checked bullets that were about an 8BHN at up to 1500fps with no problems"....but then that was probably not realistic. I was just hoping to hear that I didn't waste two hours casting a bunch of rifle bullets out of this too-soft alloy.

I did add what might have been a percent of tin to help with fillout, but the trouble is that doesn't amount to much when the rest of what's there is so low in tin/antimony content to start with. That same amount of tin added to the maybe 2% or so that's already in COWW's would have been *plenty* to get them to a reasonable hardness.
Paul

[Bret4207]

Okay, let me repeat- they will take about 3 weeks to harden. How long has it been since you cast them? I went through the same thing right after I got my Cabine Tree tester. All my fresh castings were way soft. A couple weeks later they were back up to 12-13 Bhn, right where they were supposed to be.

So, how long has it been?

[Danderdude]

pcarpenter, while the K31 was originally made with a groove diameter of .307, I have successfully used 180gr GC bullets @ .309, pushing them to ~53k PSI and ~2750 FPS. I will attempt .311 or .312 when I gear up for reloading 7.62x39.

The point is, .308 is not ideal for a K31.

[pcarpenter]

I agree about .308 not being correct. Problem was that at the time I only had a .308 die to push the bullet through, and I mentioned that I needed to lap it out to about .309. I don't even know what use a .308 die is....i just had one around that came with some other stuff. I will have a .310 shortly and will probably size them to .310 unless it makes the necks too tight. My only point in telling that story was to point out that the bullet was soft enough that it deformed in sizing down by .004. Sizing in two steps or sizing it less would probably help.

It's been just a week, today and the bullets are at the same hardness. I may give them some time. My only concern is that according to that article I linked, a pure tin-lead alloy will age *soften* in time. These can't be completely pure tin-lead if they have even a small amount of COWW content, but they may be close....or they would not have turned out at 8BHN. I will give them a few weeks. I have nothing to loose. I'll not gas check them until I have seen if they harden enough or not. My guess is that they will harden a bit in the first few weeks as everyone is suggesting and then slowly soften over a period of months. If I can shoot them all while they are "hard enough" then no worries If not, then as suggested, back in the pot they go.

I will cast some others out of slightly harder material (ie known COWW that I smelted) and maybe water drop them, so I have something to shoot in the mean time. Haven't even had a chance to shoot the Lee Enfield No.4 III* I was casting them for, so waiting three weeks is no fun at all....

[Larry Gibson]

If those are the same 8 BHN after 7 days then they are not straight COWW alloy. That indeed sounds more like a lead tin alloy at between 30 and 20 - 1. It could be COWWs with a lot of SOWWs mixed in and the smelt was not fluxed but merely skimmed off leaving a very low antimony/tin content. If you have access to linotype (some for sale on the swap forum) then mix the lino and the alloy you have at 60/40. If the AC'd bullets BHN (after at least 10 days) at 15 - 17 you are good to go. If they are harder then add more of your alloy to a 50/50 mix. A BHN of 15 - 17 will do fine with cast your K31.

Larry Gibson

[truckjohn]

A couple good ideas for that batch of lead....

1. Melt it back down for pistol bullets...
2. Sell/trade it to muzzle loader fellows for casting into ball. Frequently, those guys will trade you good quantities of Wheel Weight lead (Too hard for muzzle loaders) for your softer lead...
3. Mix in some chilled magnum shot and a bit of 50/50 solder to get your alloy sorted back out...
4. Buy some high antimony lead for same as #3.

Or.. Shoot it and see how it does...

Thanks