little help understanding please

[kweidner]

I really appreciate all those that have given input. This community has always been just incredible to offer suggestions and advice. I usually can find my answers with a search or ten because chances are I am not alone in my issues. I think this was a specific and not generic issue. I certainly will let you guys know how it goes. lesson learned mic the entire circumfrence. don't stop at one set of grooves. They could be different.......now to find the magic load.......

[geargnasher]

Well, YOU figured out your specific issue, not us! All we did was offer general advice and suggestions based on what we've learned from our own shooting experiences. Now you know more about checking and correcting a dimensionally flawed revolver, and probably more other things than you wanted to while searching for the answers!

Gear

[44man]

Gear and Char-gar say it good. It is true a little leading that shoots out with each boolit is just fine and what is left from the last shot will also be shot out with the next.
Leading has never been my issue and yes, I can shoot softer lead without it. But just what is accuracy? I refuse to think about leading at all, ONLY accuracy. I can not get what I want with soft lead even if a million shots can be taken without leading.
I had to go to my range to get bottles shot at 100 yards with my BFR .500 JRH and take a picture. This gun has not been cleaned since I bought it. I shoot water dropped WW lead. Every shot hit exactly to the red dot, I will not accept less. I suppose if I could see perfect and hold perfect, I could do 1/2" at 100 or less.
It is not just an issue with lead in the bore, it is what the gun can do so to think only leading is just not enough. So many posts about leading. It IS an issue but it can be cured but I will tell you that you can shoot lead from a revolver and shoot it like a rifle, even better then store bought jacketed.
I sure wish more would forget leading as the ONLY thing, it is just the start, accuracy can be amazing but soft lead might not lead your there.

[geargnasher]

Very true what you say, 44Man. The thing is, I can't tell from the posts without pictures (and most of them don't have pictures) whether they have what I think of as "Newbie leading" or just a case of antimony wash that affects nothing, or something in between. Newbie leading is when lead streaks so bad it soon starts to fill up the grooves, and comes out in long slivers and flakes when scrubbing it. This has to be fixed before the gun has any hope of shooting straight, that's why I go down that road. It's easy to get stuck on that road, though, and forget to take the on-ramp to the accuracy freeway.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

I really appreciate all those that have given input. This community has always been just incredible to offer suggestions and advice. I usually can find my answers with a search or ten because chances are I am not alone in my issues. I think this was a specific and not generic issue. I certainly will let you guys know how it goes. lesson learned mic the entire circumfrence. don't stop at one set of grooves. They could be different.......now to find the magic load.......

There is a finite number of mistakes than can be made shooting cast bullets. Between us we have made them all.

[mpmarty]

Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.

[kweidner]

I guess you have a point. 19 gr 2400 with wcww out of my lapped 429421 shoots incredible. I guess I want my cake and eat it too. Never really affected accuracy. I love to tinker. I did the bench rest scene a bit. Went to long range shooting (still do a ton of that). During deer season when I'm not in the woods I play with cast. Can't shoot longrange in season cause range is in middle of lease. It's about time for the coyotes and then Turkeys. I play with these things in between hunts and seasons. Just love to shoot. Casting has helped me to afford my habit. Tinkering is cheap if you do it yourself. Your combined wisdom in this forum is more than i could have tinkered in a lifetime. 4th year casting so still a newb. Been shooting all my life and reloading 24 years.

[geargnasher]

Kweidner, your in good company here, your description of the way you approach this hobby fits many of us.

My "accuracy" load ended up being 19.5 grains of 2400 with .4315" 16:1 429421 hollow points and Federal LP primers. I never did a lot of workups with 296 with this particular gun (FIL's) because neither one of us enjoyed the recoil very much, it really isn't any fun to shoot at the near-max starting levels of that powder. Lighter loads built with 2400 and Unique are tough to beat IMO.

Gear

[kweidner]

Got unique sitting next to powder dropper right now. gonna load some from 8 to 10 grains tomorrow and see what transpires. Had a friend today offer a pickup truck bed full of ww for fair market recycling price. Said he had a couple tons if he had to guess altogether. Indicated they have already been seperated from clip and sticky He has a huge car crushing business and has just been throwing them into two old pickup beds as they came in. Wow a couple tons.......keep your fingers crossed. what is fair market recycling price i wonder. He was going to check and see what recycler gave him last go round.....This could cause lots of tinkering!

[44man]

Very true what you say, 44Man. The thing is, I can't tell from the posts without pictures (and most of them don't have pictures) whether they have what I think of as "Newbie leading" or just a case of antimony wash that affects nothing, or something in between. Newbie leading is when lead streaks so bad it soon starts to fill up the grooves, and comes out in long slivers and flakes when scrubbing it. This has to be fixed before the gun has any hope of shooting straight, that's why I go down that road. It's easy to get stuck on that road, though, and forget to take the on-ramp to the accuracy freeway.

Gear

I know, just a picture would help.
Bad leading needs addressed but I am not an expert at it. I fear saying softer or harder. Either can make it better or worse.
Sometimes I have no idea. Yes, I go crazy if I can't help and don't know where to go.

[kweidner]

I will get some pictures this weekend when I shoot. Done cleaned her up. My OCD I guess. it's not a flaking lead, just a smear pretty much like a very fine grit sandpaper down the bore. It never really gets any worse. When I chore boy, there are little tiny flakes on frame and muzzle. six back and forth strokes and it's gone. I can shoot 2 cylinders or 10 the degree of lead stays the same. Not accuracy robbing, no fliers , velocity stays consistent, just there. Can feel it with a dry patch. It almost looks like lube but lead indeed. Faint Lube star on end of bbl, shiny silver deposits very thin in edge of grooves.

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

Larry, I can't leave that one alone. IME with the .44 Magnum, Beeswax and ANY kind of oily lube should be plenty good to prevent leading as much as ANY lube can prevent leading (NOT MUCH). He should be able to go to 1200 fps no problem with 9 BHN boolits and nothing more than beeswax and Vaseline for lube and have nothing left in the bore that a tight patch wouldn't wipe out. Lubes just don't do that much to stop leading by themselves, we have a pressure vs. obturation (boolit/bore seal) problem here, and I maintain that this particular boolit and gun combination don't get along well when pressure peaks after the boolit is out of the case.

You are correct; "Beeswax and ANY kind of oily lube should be plenty good to prevent leading as much as ANY lube can prevent leading (NOT MUCH)." The problem is "should", but some lubes manytimes don't, commercial and home made especially if the "leading" isn't leading (more later). IME with the .44 magnum goes back to '68 and I've shot a lot of different guns with different cast bullets of different alloys using different lubes since then. I've never lapped a revolver barrel, never found one that would lead with any alloy if the lube wasn't doing it's job with that particular bullet in that particular revolver even if there was some "barrel restriction".

I'm a great fan of Javelina lube for any alloy from 300 t0 2600+ fps in just about any cartridge. However, I also know that in a few applications in certain guns it does not do well. Those are far and few between though. I've also used several concoctions that were supposed to be the same formula as Javelina and they failed, most often with softer alloys at higher velocities. I also use my Beeswax/olive oil BP lub on many bullets of softer alloy than 9 BHN upwards of 1400+ fps with excellent results and no leading.

We might note that with numerous threads over the years about Felix lube it either is great or fails miserably. It is a home made lube and I've no doubt the failures come in the making of the lube. The OP may have done/tried everything as per the instructions or he may not have, intentionalally or inadvertently. The ingrediants used may not have been the same. There are numerous reasons for any possible/probable variation.

The problem the OP has is that the Felix lube being used works great with the faster powders at lower velocity but fails (leads) with slower powders (2400/4227 mentioned) when loaded higher to magnum level velocities. This is telling us that the lube is failing with those powders in that application. If the OP wants success with those powders in the 44 magnum at magnum level performance then a simple change to a lube that works in that application is called for. It is possible that there may be aonther problem but all indications are that there isn't and the problem is the lube fails in that application. A change to a lube that works in that application is the quickest and simplest way to find out and probably solve the problem.

If not the lube then the problem is more than likely the use of "acwws". The BHN of 9 doesn't address the content of the alloy. That alloy used (WWs) is probably high on antimony and very low on tin. As you have quoted the "metalurgy" articles in Lyman's Handbooks I'm sure you are aware that a certain amount of tin is needed to keep antimony in solution with lead as a ternary alloy. If not enough tin is present then the "leading" is really probably antimony being streaked down the barrel. The OP states "lead is not terrible. wash maybe?" and this is probably what it is. If the change of lube doesn't solve the "leading/wash" problem then the solution here is to add 1-2% tin to the alloy.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

kweidner

"it's not a flaking lead, just a smear pretty much like a very fine grit sandpaper down the bore. It never really gets any worse. When I chore boy, there are little tiny flakes on frame and muzzle. six back and forth strokes and it's gone. I can shoot 2 cylinders or 10 the degree of lead stays the same. Not accuracy robbing, no fliers , velocity stays consistent, just there. Can feel it with a dry patch. It almost looks like lube but lead indeed. Faint Lube star on end of bbl, shiny silver deposits very thin in edge of grooves

That is classic antimonal smearing, not "leading".

The lube is not preventing it (rather obvious deduction eh?). Swicth or at least test another lube or add 1-2% tin to your alloy or both. I shoot lots of ACWWs with 1-2% tin added over Keith's classic load or over H110 at 1350 - 1400+ fps out of several revolvers (many others over the years) with no leading and no antimonal wash, even after 50 - 200 rounds. Many. many others do the same. You can also push said same bullets/loads to 1550 - 1650+ fps out of Contenders and rifles with no leading or antimonal wash. Absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to do the same with your revolver.

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

kweidner, re-read post #20 and #33, you can dramatically reduce an antimony wash by keeping the Sb/Sn as equal as practicle. No way to know exactly the Sb percentage but COWW is about 98+% of my handgun and rifle shooting and I automatically add 2% Sn every time I add ingots. WW should be about 2-3% Sb so adding 2% Sn should keep the two pretty close or at least close enough to equal.

If you don't have any solder to add you can order pure Sn from Roto Metals, just add 2% Sn by weight of the WW, besides a better filled out bullet it could go a long ways solving the Sb wash.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Larry, there's two things lube has never fixed at my house, maybe yours, but not mine: Major gas leaks and antimony wash. I'm not discounting what you say about the variables in homade lube, but at 900 fps in a .44 magnum with Unique or 2400 EARWAX would be plenty to keep the boolits from leading.

Lube viscocity can be adjusted to handle small gas leaks at high velocity/pressure (this is why Darr lube makes lousy HV rifle lube) but a barrel restriction of seven ten-thousandths makes a gas leak after the boolit passes it that is more than any lube I know of can handle.

What I noticed was the change of powders didn't really change the pressures that much. Note the chronograph data with each powder, you can tell the pressures were reasonably close. What changed was the velocity and the pressure/time curve. Something about having higher pressure later in the burn cycle started causing leading. It might have only been the 200 fps gain in velocity causing it like you suggest, but I seriously doubt it. With TB, the pressure is falling off rapidly by the time the boolit starts engraving. Not so with 2400. Run it through your software and see what the pressures are vs. boolit location. I think the TB loads didn't lead because by the time the boolit base cleared the restriction in the first part of the barrel, the pressure wasn't high enough to cause significant gas-cutting. But with the much slower powders, the pressure was peaking at that point and causing gas cutting. No lube will fix this. I could be all wet here, but I don't think so. I've fixed way to many leading revolvers with with either a burn rate change or by firelapping to think that it's just a lube problem here. Back when my learning curve was steeper I thought lube had to be the solution to everything and tried to fix all my problems by finding a magic lube formula, but what I discovered is that there is no substitute for a good dynamic fit and balanced load. Lube does play an important role, but more in the accuracy and fouling department than in the leading department. Neither of us will know for sure if it was the lube since he fixed the barrel restriction, but there probably isn't any need to know since that seemed to fix most of the issue.

What's left after the firelapping I think we've established as primarily antimony wash. That little trick of adding tin to help reduce it in low-tin antimonial alloys like range scrap and WW metal is something I learned in no small part from your posts. I put two and two together after learning more about how the metals work together in the alloy, and with the metallurgical explanation added it made perfect sense. My experiences afterward proved it as far as I'm concerned.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

Here's what the OP posted;

noe 429421 hp acww drops .4335 at 233 grains bhn 9 sized .4314
gun is ruger sbh 4 3/4 44 mag

firelapped and slugged .4292 bbl
throats .4304 to .4306

felix lubed bullets

shoots accurate with 2400, unique, trailboss, all under 1.5 at 25yds

when using tb a recent thing (no and i mean zero lead 100 rounds 200 rounds zero)
770 fps over chrony and if i could do my part i believe it would go in same hole.

lube making it to end of bbl and a little lube build up on forcing cone but 0 lead with trailboss at 770 fps. i have shot umpteen million and can run dry patch and have shiny bore.

using unique, 2400, 4227 anything that goes past about 900 fps lead rears its ugly head down the rifling. i have checked for tight spots, fire lapped and can't feel anything. what do you guys think is going on? bore looks incredible when clean.

His bullets are sized .4314 for a firelapped and slugged .4292 bbl with throats .4304 to .4306. You can't get anybetter "fit" than that and there's no room for "major gas leaks" and no need for "obturation". The "wash" is down the entire length of barrel and on the frame and muzzle. That is not from a bore constriction. It also is not from gas cutting because the bullets "fit". I have run those loads across my Oehler M35P chronograph and some across the Oehler M43 for psi measurement. Strangely I got no gas cutting, no anitmonal wash and no leading with .430 sized bullets in a .44 revovler with .433 cylinder throats and a .429 barre after thousands of rounds (I've had that revolver since '68)l. But then I was using WWs with tin added and Javelina lube. Come to think of it I've shot thousands of .429 sized WW+tin cast bullets and other alloys, harder and softer, through that revolver and many different other .44 revolvers (back in the day before we all went crazy over "fit" and heavier bullets) using loads from .44 SPL up through top end 2400, 4227 and H110 Magnum loads with the same accuracy and no leading that I get these days with cast bullets that "fit".

Funny, but I wonder how Keith, Jordan, Askins and Skelton among others all shot as well as they did with all of their .429/.430 sized cast bullets back in the day before all this "fit" was necessary for any accuracy at all?

The OP's Felix lube may be fine as I said but there's only one way to know; test it against a known lube of good proven performance with the loads he uses. If the antimonial goes away he will know it's the lube. However, I think now, after his last post, it is indeed antimonal wash and the addition of tin should cure the problem. If that does the trick he can melt his bullets down and add tin to his alloy and try that. Eliminating one variable at a time is the only way to know and really solve the problem. Obviously lapping the barrel to remove any restriction or other percieve abnormalities has not cured the problem. The smooth bore has apparently made it easier to clean out though. Would be better to eliminate the antimonal wash problem to begin with, I think we can agree on that.

That's all there is to say about it as it's up to the OP whether he wants to solve the problem and make it go away or put up with it.

Larry Gibson

[FirstBrit]

.......His bullets are sized .4314 for a firelapped and slugged .4292 bbl with throats .4304 to .4306. You can't get anybetter "fit" than that and there's no room for "major gas leaks" and no need for "obturation". The "wash" is down the entire length of barrel and on the frame and muzzle. That is not from a bore constriction. It also is not from gas cutting because the bullets "fit".
Larry Gibson

Hi Larry,

I think in the OP the dimensions referred to the cylinder throat and barrel not specifically the forcing cone of the barrel. When he re-slugged the barrel ( see Kweider posting #17) he found an anomally that across one particular pair of grooves diameter was only 0,4287". Whereupon he re-lapped - although he didn't specifically mention whether the forcing cone was treated seperately. But certainly the barrel was fire-lapped. He found that leading was less after this re-lapping and that there was also a gain in velocity. To me this would suggest that the gun had some sort of restriction ( forcin cone/bareel) which did actually cause a "gas leak". His re-lapping procedure reduced the restriction to such an extent that the leading became less with the problem powders and generally there was a slight increase in velocity making better utilization of the inherent energy in the powder charge.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

[kweidner]

This is awesome. I love it. I need to start posting more questions. I can learn more reading this post about proper fit/pressure curve/lubes than most would figure out on their own in a lifetime. I have often wondered about tin myself. I will try on my next batch. It is pretty hard to get perfect fill out on those HP moulds. Had a gentlemen that was supposed to bring me some 50/50 but i haven't seen it yet. It is just sitting on a shelf in his barn. I have about 400 pounds of soft stuff and was going to order some super hard next month to blend anyway. I will add some tin to the rotometals order. Course if I get those wheel weights from car crusher, I am going to get more than a little tin. I have no source locally for it. Checked the plumbing supply house. "They don't stock it but can order me a case for $13 a bar." Needless to say that ain't happening! I have scrounged locally for pewter as well. No luck there either. Next pretty large town over I was able to find some electrical solder at 60/40 I think but it had flux. Didn't know how that would affect the alloy so I passed. I can find plenty of silver in solder but darn hard to find non flux cored tin lead. Got that unique loaded. Am gonna let some fly tomorrow.

[cbrick]

There is a trick/secret to getting good HP fillout. Heat, not alloy but mold AND spud. They both simply need to be hot enough. The spud has far less mass than the mold and will cool far faster than you may think. Get it hot enough from the git go and keep the mold closed and full of lead as much as possible, cast quick and keep going. DO NOT inspect your bullets while your casting, that spud is cooling off. Plenty of time to admire them when your finished. I run my alloy temp up to about 720-730 degrees, no hotter. A HP spud that is too cool will never give well filled out cavities.

Tin will help prevent oxidation of the alloy going into your mold up to about 750 degrees, hotter than that and not only does the tin loose it's ability to reduce surface tension (oxidation) but tin itself will oxidize much faster. If your going to run your pot hotter than this there is no need to waste money on tin.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Hi Larry,

I think in the OP the dimensions referred to the cylinder throat and barrel not specifically the forcing cone of the barrel. When he re-slugged the barrel ( see Kweider posting #17) he found an anomally that across one particular pair of grooves diameter was only 0,4287". Whereupon he re-lapped - although he didn't specifically mention whether the forcing cone was treated seperately. But certainly the barrel was fire-lapped. He found that leading was less after this re-lapping and that there was also a gain in velocity. To me this would suggest that the gun had some sort of restriction ( forcin cone/bareel) which did actually cause a "gas leak". His re-lapping procedure reduced the restriction to such an extent that the leading became less with the problem powders and generally there was a slight increase in velocity making better utilization of the inherent energy in the powder charge.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

That is exactly the way I read it, too. I think Larry missed a critical post in there somewhere.

As to why all the oldtimers never had problems with thread choke, it's because they weren't shooting Ruger revolvers made with the "improved" modern methods that streamlined the barrel clocking process and causes overtorque on a number of their barrels. Overtorqued barrels crush the threads a bit and cause a bore restriction and make cast boolit shooters want to pull out their hair. Once the boolit swages to the minor size of the barrel and passes beyond that point, it no longer obturates the barrel and the resulting gas-cutting creates leading virtually the whole length of the barrel. It doesn't matter how big the boolit begins, if it gets squashed too much along the way it will leak.

Gear

Gear