a question

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Aaaaah Jon,
Maybe you are the person I once before heard/read giving much the same opinion.

Could be ?
I don't recall debating it with you though.

the hookie o-ring lock nut used by Lee is to me just another clear sign of lower/cheaper quality.

I doubt you currently have any now...BUT if you do (now or in the future)
we should do a trade. I don't know how many non-hookie locknuts I have
and some may not have a set screw, But I surely would trade you one to one.
Jon

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Jon,

No, don't think we "debated: the issue. I likely just went on my opinionated way.

Just took a look through my "stash" - all reloaders have a stash don't they - and didn't see anything worthy of heading your way. Would be glad to do so if I did.

Do have some red die boxes on the shelf, but the wrong kind .

Enjoy your posts.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[rockrat]

With the Lee o-ring setup, I usually put a couple of wraps of teflon pipe tape on the threads to help hold them in place. I used to just throw them away.
I have a mix of stuff, Lee to Dillon.

[snuffy]

Lee's O-ring locknut is a Godsend. It grips the threads of a die so
it won't loosen, even on a auto-indexing turret press which has motions
and vibrations, Yet is easily adjustable.
To me, that is great inovation. Jon

Finally someone who appreciates the lee LOCK rings! I feel bad for those that can't figure out how they work and how to use them. They're a MUST for the lee turret press, as the clearance between the dies is minimal.(just enough for the lee nuts)

As a hydraulic repairman, I have to understand "O" rings and how they work. The fit and function of the lee o-rings is well thought out. The way they jam against the top of the press/turret, the inside dia. of the nut and the die at the SAME TIME, is what makes them unique. Then loosening the die causes them to stay put if you need to remove the die, then to return to the same setting.

Crusty, Hornady has a new deprime/expander stem that actually has threads now. Called the zip spindle kit, comes with two decapper pins and a new collet nut. Another band-aid for an otherwise poorly made die set. That sliding chamber for the seater die is so poorly machined, it loads crooked ammo. I have a couple of Hornady die sets, replaced them with lee sets for a MUCH better result as far as runnout goes.

Hornady's j-word bullets are great. Their loading stuff was the Pacific reloading company, it went downhill since Hornady had it. The LNL is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Are we so lazy we can't screw a die in?

I was helping a member of this forum get his single stage LNL set up. If it had been my press, it would have been on it's way back to Hornady for a refund!

Those bushings are terrible. There's no way to hold onto them while setting up a die. They were constantly unlocking when trying to back a die out. If I were given a LNL press, I would locktite one bushing in it, then MAYBE the rest of the press would work okay. Thing is, you're stuck with using 7/8X14 dies in it. Not possible to use the 1-¼ 12 dies by taking the reducer bushing out of a Lee, RCBS, or other big "C" presses. JMHO.

[MikeS]

Another thing I didn't see mentioned, many larger manufacturers will GIVE equipment to known big name writers! So now they're writing about how great a $300 furnace is, but they didn't spend a dime to get it! Or they are given equipment to evaluate, and then are given the chance to buy that piece of equipment for very little money. If you were a writer, and you wrote articles that were very critical of a manufacturers products, how long do you think that manufacturer will still either give you stuff, or let you buy it for 1/4 the normal price?

Many years ago when the USP Compact was first imported into the country, my father was given one to evaluate, and after 6 months could either send it back, or buy it for under $200.00, which I think was less than half it's list price at the time. Back in 1980 my father was given an Uzi (the semi auto version), which he gave to me as he didn't like 'military style' weapons. The Uzi was only used by my father to design a carry sling for it, which he designed for DeSantis.

And guns are not the only things that are given away to writers, or other professionals. Back in the 1950's Nikon gave away their cameras to professional photographers. This did 2 things for them, first they could claim that more professional photographers used Nikon cameras than any other brand camera. And second, when new amateurs got into the photography hobby, they would want to get the stuff the pros used, and as they saw more pros using Nikons, that's what they wanted to use!

Getting back to reloading equipment, how many folks buy a particular brand of equipment because that what their favorite writer uses? Giving away equipment to known writers is good advertising. Even after they've evaluated a particular piece of equipment, it still gets mentioned in other articles, so there's extra 'advertising' that can go on for years. How often do you see (or did you see years ago) where an author is evaluating a new boolit design, and he says something like "I cleaned up the mould, and fired up my trusty RCBS lead pot..." Or you see a picture of their reloading bench, and right in the middle is the reloading press with Lyman written all over it, or similar scenes?

Whenever I see a writer singing the praises of a product, I think of it as advertising, and not much more.

And a quick note on die lock rings, I personally think the Hornady split rings are the best out there. they're made of steel, they lock positively without marring the threads of the die, and they have flats on them so a wrench can be used to loosen them should they be too tight to loosen by hand. But having said that, I use some RCBS rings, some Lyman rings, and even some Lee rings! On something that doesn't need to be adjusted often I can use the Lee rings, and just put a bit of locktite on the ring once the final adjustment is made, and it will wick down into the threads, and keep the die adjustment from changing! On dies that I adjust often (like my M dies) I will use a 'normal' ring that uses a setscrew, I just don't tighten the setscrew at all, as I'm probably going to have to readjust it for each reloading session anyway.

[kbstenberg]

Mike S years ago I sent a letter to Handloader on this subject. Asking why anyone should beleave any of there evaluations. I got a very indignant letter back saying they would never do such a thing.

[DaveCampbell]

At the risk of getting flamed, I am one of those gawl durned gun writers. Been in the business for about 20 years, and I have seen a lot. So with that in mind, let me offer some perspective.

Yes, it is true that we get a lot of gear and supplies comped. We pay for it with ink. Yes, there are a few are product whores who will never write anything negative about that which has been "given" to them. Most are relatively honest guys that offer a perspective or review to a product that the average consumer finds valuable in making their own choices.

In other venues I see laments as to the "advertorial" content of the magazines. There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is the changing demographics of the reasership. From my limted experience here at CB, I'd guess a significant plurality of us are on the wrong side of 40 (or 50...60...ad nauseum). When we were young (how I lament that phrase), we were eager to get the gear and products we felt we needed in order to shoot. An example: How many of us who dote on .44 Special revolvers today developed that passion because of the writings of Skeeter Skelton? How many of us continue to march on with 7.5 grains of Unique behind a Lyman 429421 semi wadcutter? Point is: As we age our experiences precipitate a change of perspective. Newer shooters are looking for new products that will enhance their shooting experience, while many of us old phartz have all that and don't want to change.

Another big reason for "advertorial content" is due to the marketplace. Anyone notice that magazines--especially gun and outdoor magazines--are more like a pamphlet than a traditional magazine? The reason is simple--money. Like it or not, magazines are a for-profit venture, and becuse of things like the Internet, games and whatall, magazine sales and subscriptions are very low. Paper, printing and mailing costs are astronomical. Believe me, I know: Any ten of us could live very well on what the NRA pays for postage to mail out some 4 million magazines in one month. As one who had to balance page counts vis-a-vis ad space and content, I can tell you that it is a very stressful job. Thankfully, I am now a recovering editor without that stress. However, as a contributor I need to keep those parameters in mind as I query editors. I may prefer to wax about Smith & Wesson .44 Specials or Model 70 Winchesters with Circassian walnut stocks, but the marketplace demands to be informed about revolvers that fire .410 shotshells and rifles with synthetic stocks. If I want a paycheck, I have to deliver what the marketplace demands.

Just thought I'd toss a couple of pennies into the mix and let ya'all gnaw on them a bit.

Best,

Dave

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well said Dave!!!!!!!!!!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Mossy Nugget]

Lee has some good stuff and some not so great. My bench is almost all Lee except for a chamfer tool. Lees won't fit the outside of short cases, and I trim 1,000's of 9mm down to make Makarov. They replaced my case trimmer for free when I wore it out , and the anniversary kit got me off to a good, inexpensive start. I cannot remember which magazine the article was in, but the anniversary kit was considered the best value because of the "extras" like measure, scale, case prep tools and priming system are essential and included. That beat the competition. Yes, Lees got plastic, but how strong does it really have to be to work well? I was reloading almost immediately for about half the price of the green stuff. The loadall II keeps me in shells without breaking the bank, at least enough to shoot a couple rounds of clays on Sundays. The primer feed jams so much I took mine off and just set the primers on the anvil by hand. Save yourself $12 and don't buy one. Still, I can't tell a Lee reload from any other reload either in the box or on the paper. Maybe Lee stuff won't last as long, but their lifetime warranty will. If I start to shoot competitively, the single stage press won't do, but for now, It's good.

Moss

[nicholst55]

To be successful, a magazine writer generally needs a supply of unobtainable molds and obsolete powders. They then can write glowing reports about them, and leave no recourse to prove them wrong. No writer should be permitted to mention or use any powder, bullet, or mold in an article that is not readily available.

Amen, brother! I can't count how many times I've read about the virtues of Federal handgun brass in gun rags, especially .45 Colt. Problem is, I can't recall ever seeing any for sale! I occasionally see some .40 S&W or .45 ACP brass for sale, but never revolver caliber brass.

[Bret4207]

At the risk of getting flamed, I am one of those gawl durned gun writers. Been in the business for about 20 years, and I have seen a lot. So with that in mind, let me offer some perspective.

Yes, it is true that we get a lot of gear and supplies comped. We pay for it with ink. Yes, there are a few are product whores who will never write anything negative about that which has been "given" to them. Most are relatively honest guys that offer a perspective or review to a product that the average consumer finds valuable in making their own choices.

In other venues I see laments as to the "advertorial" content of the magazines. There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is the changing demographics of the reasership. From my limted experience here at CB, I'd guess a significant plurality of us are on the wrong side of 40 (or 50...60...ad nauseum). When we were young (how I lament that phrase), we were eager to get the gear and products we felt we needed in order to shoot. An example: How many of us who dote on .44 Special revolvers today developed that passion because of the writings of Skeeter Skelton? How many of us continue to march on with 7.5 grains of Unique behind a Lyman 429421 semi wadcutter? Point is: As we age our experiences precipitate a change of perspective. Newer shooters are looking for new products that will enhance their shooting experience, while many of us old phartz have all that and don't want to change.

Another big reason for "advertorial content" is due to the marketplace. Anyone notice that magazines--especially gun and outdoor magazines--are more like a pamphlet than a traditional magazine? The reason is simple--money. Like it or not, magazines are a for-profit venture, and becuse of things like the Internet, games and whatall, magazine sales and subscriptions are very low. Paper, printing and mailing costs are astronomical. Believe me, I know: Any ten of us could live very well on what the NRA pays for postage to mail out some 4 million magazines in one month. As one who had to balance page counts vis-a-vis ad space and content, I can tell you that it is a very stressful job. Thankfully, I am now a recovering editor without that stress. However, as a contributor I need to keep those parameters in mind as I query editors. I may prefer to wax about Smith & Wesson .44 Specials or Model 70 Winchesters with Circassian walnut stocks, but the marketplace demands to be informed about revolvers that fire .410 shotshells and rifles with synthetic stocks. If I want a paycheck, I have to deliver what the marketplace demands.

Just thought I'd toss a couple of pennies into the mix and let ya'all gnaw on them a bit.

Best,

Dave

Well Dave, at least you're honest enough to admit the reality is as it seems. I've corresponded with a few gun scribes over the years and all but one or two deny any "pay by ink" exists at all. I would hate to have to write for a living, that much I can tell you for sure.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, so there is/maybe some, "pay by ink" out there. Sooooooooooooooo!

If you don't like the printed media because you think so and so writer got such and such brass/primers/powder/loading tool etc. etc. etc. for free or at reduced cost, DON'T BUY THE MAG. THAT IS YOUR CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally I enjoy reading the better publications and I can deal with a writer getting some breaks. Loading in the qualities and many different calibers required for new and/or updated info would be out of the reach of most people/writers or gun mags. would need to sell for $50.00 a copy if they had to pay retail costs for all the items tested.

I knew a fellow some years back that photographed and wrote up different out door items, clothes, snow machines, 4x4s and likely today 4wheelers.

In fact, I saw his yard one time when he was having a "yard sale" to clear out some extra items.

One time he drove a Toyota 4x4 for years, and when it was new, all he had to do was have it in a photograph some place where he was using a tent or snow machine or ??????

After years, he was finally able to buy the rig at a VERY reduced cost.

COST of business/advertising for the company and what in the world is a company going to do with a couple dozen used/tested rifles/4wheelers/tents/coolers/camp stoves etc. when they have already run tests on another couple of dozen.

This is a business fact of life.

Now there are some writters I don't like. Don't like their writtings or how they come across on the printed page, but I don't need to buy those publications or read those stories.

Call em what you want, but I along with most of you would jump at the chance to do what most of these writers do, AND some of us would be good and believe able while others would deserve being painted with the muddy and broad brush many of you are using on this thread.

I bet not all of you would ring my bell, and I'm 100% sure I won't ring all of yours, but that down't mean I might not have some useful info that could help you or you know a cure to some problem that could help me.

So, get a life guys. Writing for the mags IS A BUSINESS and will remain so.

Hmmmmmmmmmm???? I wonder if they are hiring?

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[DaveCampbell]

Gentlemen, I must apologize for hijacking the thread. It was not my intention to do so. The OP's subject was whether less expensive components were used by writers. To that end, I have used Lee products from time to time. I found them generally satisfactory, if not refined. If a less expensive product gives you the service you seek, then it's a good deal. Some of us do want and appreciate a higher level of sophistication and are willing to pay for it.

As to the direction I inadvertantly took this thread, I'd be happy to continue the discussion in a new thread. So if that's a subject you'd like to explore further, feel free to start a new thread, and I'll be there.

Best,

Dave

[waksupi]

Gentlemen, I must apologize for hijacking the thread. It was not my intention to do so. The OP's subject was whether less expensive components were used by writers. To that end, I have used Lee products from time to time. I found them generally satisfactory, if not refined. If a less expensive product gives you the service you seek, then it's a good deal. Some of us do want and appreciate a higher level of sophistication and are willing to pay for it.

As to the direction I inadvertantly took this thread, I'd be happy to continue the discussion in a new thread. So if that's a subject you'd like to explore further, feel free to start a new thread, and I'll be there.

Best,

Dave

Dave, this forum is world famous for thread drift. Don't worry about it. We may be discussing why ducks don't fly east in the winter before a thread is done, but we eventually stumble back upon the original topic. We will have also learned some fun trivia on the way. Welcome aboard.

[olafhardt]

As the originator of this thread I say "Keep it up Dave. " This is just what we need. Many of the people we regard as experts may only be whores. I think we have tons of info we rely on that was manufactored from nothing. We have guys who generate drivel in quantity and impressive formats. I'll list a few:
1)All momentum based boolit effectiveness formulas are absurd because if applied to the gun they will show the shooter gets hurt worse than the shootee.
2) We really don't have a good method to measure internal pressure.
3) Energy is a real calculatable number but it can be converted almost instantly into nondestructive forms.
I think gun writers think we are real stupid and don't want to see the truth, I read that you should clean off all the blood before photographing our kill. I read the British magazine"Sporting Gun" they show game being cleaned and various stages of dog surgery. Finn Aagard once wrote that you could do it all with a 30-06.
I am rambling. What I mean to say is if you have a center fire rifle or handgun, you can buy some cheap Lee equipment and have great reloading experiences. I assume could do the same with ashotgun, but I havent tried itp

[shotman]

Hey its not just the mags. check out some of the forums on the net . Not into name calling but one If you dont have all Blue dont go there
I would bet good money that LEE dont give anything away. They are what they are and where good or bad . They are like walmart put a fair product at a fair price and the public will come
I am not against lee . I have many of their products. Hey the al dies dont rust

[garym1a2]

The knob feel off the handle of my Loadmaster last night. They make some stuff good (classic turrent) but their high end product like the loadmaster is severly lacking in quality. My primer system is not useable and the knob that fell off the handle was not even threaded. It looks like at best a very thin line of glue.