H4198 in the 45-70

[4296]

Shot my Ruger No 1 in 45-70 today for the first time today. Lyman 385 grain plain base round nose sized .459 with 1.5 grains of dacron, standard primer and 33 grains of H4198. They averaged 1435 fps and showed excellent 100 yard accuracy with a New England peep sight. I was however surprised by the amount of unburned powder left in the bore after each shot. I had thought 4198 to be a fairly easy to ignite powder. Will this combo need a magnum primer and/or a heavy crimp, or is this normal?
I was also surprised by the heavy recoil of the rifle-it rivaled my 375 H&H, something I do not what to deal with all the time. I was shooting off of an unfamiliar bench and think I was not in a comfortable position when firing. Interested to here of others loads with 4198 in low(er) recoiling loads. Thanks!

[elk hunter]

You must be shooting a much more robust recoiling 45-70 than I do. I've been shooting an original Sharps in 45 2 1/10th, aka 45-70, with 400 grain bullets and 28 to 32 grains of 4198 for nearly fifty years and can only describe the recoil as moderate compared to my 375 H&H.

As you stated, you must have been in an uncomfortable position.

28 grains of 4198 with a cast 400 grain bullet is a Trapdoor level load and unburned powder in these rather low pressure loads is common. I haven't found it affected accuracy, so I don't worry about it.

[onondaga]

Alliant Reloder #7 has a burn rate close to 4198 but the Rel#7 burns much cleaner in reduced loads in My .458 Win Mag, it might do the same in your 45/70 I use a different filler. BPI Original, it is a granulated high heat plastic and with the powder charge + filler my loads are 105% compressed loads and ignition is very complete. You must add the weight of the filler used to the bullet weight for a total projectile weight when calculating loads and pressure safety as the filler is shot with the bullet and affects pressure...BPI Original :
http:

//www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=695248

This filler meters easily and accurately with powder measures or scoops.

Accurate 5744 is also close in burn rate, it burns pretty clean and was designed as a powder for reduced loads that is not position sensitive during ignition so a filler may not be needed with 5744. I had no ignition problems with 5744 but my groups were smaller with the BPI Original filler added . I believe this is because the BPI also acts as a gas check on plain base bullets.

Just as a note: I also like 5744 because it is a double base powder and it BANGS louder!

[44man]

I found the same working loads for an original rifle. 4198 beat my cheek on the funny shaped stock with a 405 gr boolit.
I had 500 gr boolits loaded with 3031 and after getting a sore cheek, I looked at them sideways!
Recoil was pleasant and the stock no longer beat my face. Accuracy was much, much better too. I then tried the boolit I use in my revolver and put 5 shots in a ragged hole at 50 yards but they hit too low for the old non adjustable sights.
I can't use 3031 in my revolver, powder does not all burn but accuracy was still good. I have to use 4759.
5744 will not work at all in the short barrel, 4198 gave me pressure excursions, a stuck case and 1800 fps for a few shots while the rest gave 1600. The revolver is so different.
Try 3031 and 5744 in your rifle, if they group, ignore a few unburned gr.
I do feel 4198 gives a sharper recoil.

[dale2242]

I use 30gr 4198 under the Lyman 457124HP running about 375 grs in my Trapdoor.
It seems to be on the original issue sights...dale

[DragoonDrake]

I shoot that same load with a 405gr bullet out of three rifles and 1 pistol. I don't think any of them have terrible recoil. Also out of my sharps my recoil-sensitive SWMBO has no problem shooting it (actually she said when I get the 45-110 she is taking my 45-70 sharps).

Adam

[AZ-Stew]

The Rugers aren't as heavy as the Sharpses. That makes a BIG difference in felt recoil. I bought a Ruger #3 200 Year commemorative for my son when he was born (1976) and it's not only a relatively light rifle, it also has an aluminum butt plate. Robust loads in it will definately get your attention. Shooting position can also have an effect, From the bench you want to be sitting up as straight as possible, and if necessary, use a sand bag between your shoulder and the rifle butt. It spreads the recoil over a greater area of your shoulder and it's mass is added to that of the rifle and thus reduces recoil. When you fire from a standing or kneeling position, your body will roll with the punch and you won't feel as much recoil. When shooting at game, you'll hardly notice it.

As to the unburnt powder, if you have the accuracy you desire, don't worry about the leftovers.

Regards,

Stew

[ph4570]

420 Grain boolit and 29 grains of 4198 is a sweet load for my Browning hi-wall 45-70. It is an easy shooter but then the gun weighs 12#. Accuracy is very good.

[9.3X62AL]

4296--

Your rifle is set up and sighted identically to my own #1 in 45-70. As Stew mentions, these aren't heavy rifles at all, and they start to beat on ya some when taken past 1873 velocities. Benchrest work gets old REAL FAST with some of the fire-breather Ruger loads. Standing up relieves some of that recoil, and a barricade rest works well when standing--sorta like a PPC revolver shooter does.

I don't use fillers, and do use 28.0 grains of IMR-4198 and the Lee 405 grain boolit to duplicate 1873 ballistics--1300 to 1325 FPS. It leaves behind a little bore trash, and Federal #215 primers clean some of that up--and lower SDs a little in the bargain. #215s have become my go-to primer in the 45-70's cavernous casing.

A "standard" rule of thumb regarding duplication of black powder ballistics in old calibers is to use one of the 4198s at 0.4 grains X the given caliber's nominal BP charge. This is the derivation of that 28.0 grain load listed above. This formula has worked well for me in 25/20, 32/20, 44/40, and 45/70 loads using standard-weight boolits to achieve BP velocities.

[4296]

Thanks for all the replies. I will try 28 grains of H4198 next time out. The amount of horsepower 33 grains gives takes away some of the shootability for me and I do want to enjoy the rifle through frequent shooting. My original load could actually be heard impacting the 100 yard sand berm backstop at the range-something I have never experienced shooting numerous other calibers. I see this classic cartridge derives its legendary power with bullet mass-not the high velocities that seem to be favored today. Obviously, My chronogragh's low numbers do not demonstrate this cartridge's power. I may just begin to appreciate this old dinosaur-and may even deer hunt with it- as the Ruger is a very handy, compact rifle(with power to spare!)

[NHlever]

Reducing the boolit weight will help the recoil a lot too, and still give you pretty potent loads. I use the RCBS 45-300 FN, and the Lee 325 Gr. RNFP with just 12 grains of Unique for very pleasant loads in my light single shot (Handi Rifle) I like almost waiting for them to hit when shooting at long range, and they still are not loads to be trifled with. It is easy to work up in power when it is needed, but truth be told that isn't often.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hey there 4296.

GET RID OF THAT PEEP SIGHT ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just started working toward using a 45/70 #1 for cast boolit hunting this past Spring.

First shot it with the factory Iron Sights with 425gr slugs at about 1600fps.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really wondered if I was man enough for this thing.

Bought the rifle with a 3X9 Pentax scope which is about as ideal as mounting a piece of gas pipe, so figured I try the irons before I got a suitable scope.

Even though the rifle hurt to shoot, I went ahead and mounted a scope and what do you know, the pain all went away!!!!!!!

The problem was totally the low head position required by the iron sights.

I use a sissy bag when doing bench work, but I do that with any rifle 270 and above, so no biggy.

During my load development, I have tested loads with a 355gr LBT/WFN boolit to slightly above 2500fps, while my hunting load for this season was the LBT boolit at an average of 2290fps.

As soon as I got the rifle, I installed a good recoil pad, and that with the proper head position makes a 40 - 50 round shooting session, no big thing, on or off the bench.

I have friends who have owned or shot #3s in 45/70, never to do so again.

The drop on the butt of the #3 is much greater then the #1, so shooting one of those is nothing I ever desire to do.

I like the looks and idea of the peep sight, but am not much into pain, so the higher head position required with the scope make a HUGE!!!!!!! difference.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Charlie Sometimes]

Yea, a #3 is VERY light, and in 45-70 packs a punch on both ends with mid-range and up loads in most any powder, I've come to find. #1 is a bit heavier.

I am converting mine to 38-55/375 Win. and going to restock it for better fit to help prevent that issue. Open sights put you down too low, and the square top of the #3 works against you. Mine will wear a scope after the conversion work. It will be a #2?

I have been considering the data on several different powders for the 45-70 and 375 Win., and I wondered about 4198 a lot as it does or doesn't seem to be as versatile as some others, depending on what you look at.

I like 9.3x62AL's "standard rule of thumb" reccommendation for matching velocities to BP loads. I think that range is all you really need on most occasions in this caliber, from what I have been shooting so far. Gonna write that one down- 40% of the BP load for 4198 ranged powders.

[AZ-Stew]

Even though the rifle hurt to shoot, I went ahead and mounted a scope and what do you know, the pain all went away!!!!!!!

The problem was totally the low head position required by the iron sights.

Don't discount the fact that the scope added some mass to the rifle. A 12 ounce scope and 8 ounces of base and rings adds 18 percent to the weight of a 7 pound rifle (the Ruger #3 is in that neighborhood). Without a recoil calculator I can't give you a percentage reduction in recoil, but it is signficant.

Regards,

Stew

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, the scope did add a tad bit of weight, but the #1s - 45/70 is really light when compared to the #1 "B"s I have had in the past.

For an Ol'Coot, this very short and light rifle is really great for carry!!!!!!!!!!

Had a #1B that someone had shorted to a 22" barrel and it was a sweet carry, but not as light as this #1s.

Good recoil pad, good head position, maybe short on between the ears stuff, and I'm GOOD TO GO!!!!!!!!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Tazman1602]

Dude tell me Ruger didn't make a 45-70 in their ultralight #1, nah, couldn't happen. That load is pretty comfortable in my Marlin GG only I shoot 405 and 420 grain bullets most of the time. Speed even looks close IIRC.

A number one may beat you up a bit even though I love the gun. Try a pad, put a shot bag or a shooting bag or anything against your shoulder (yeah I know.....) and see if that helps.

Shooting off a bench is nothing like hunting. You can get pounded from the bench, but I can never remember the rifle recoiling when I was shooting at game even though I know I got hammered on the bench.

You slug the barrel yet? Just curious.

Art

Shot my Ruger No 1 in 45-70 today for the first time today. Lyman 385 grain plain base round nose sized .459 with 1.5 grains of dacron, standard primer and 33 grains of H4198. They averaged 1435 fps and showed excellent 100 yard accuracy with a New England peep sight. I was however surprised by the amount of unburned powder left in the bore after each shot. I had thought 4198 to be a fairly easy to ignite powder. Will this combo need a magnum primer and/or a heavy crimp, or is this normal?
I was also surprised by the heavy recoil of the rifle-it rivaled my 375 H&H, something I do not what to deal with all the time. I was shooting off of an unfamiliar bench and think I was not in a comfortable position when firing. Interested to here of others loads with 4198 in low(er) recoiling loads. Thanks!

[onondaga]

I think a magnum primer in straight walled cases like the 45/70 increases the chance of squibbed rounds leaving the bullet partway down the bore and not lighting the powder,. Dacron filler helps but it does not compress the charge like the BPI mentioned above so ignition is not as positive. The unburned powder problem usually is increased with lighter bullets and light crimp or no crimp also. The Lyman 385 RN is a good weight for the 45/70 . I have found Rel #7 a much cleaner burning powder than 4198.

If you choose to go slightly lower in bullet weight to reduce recoil, I have great results with Lee 340 RN-F . the flat nose smacks meat very well compared to a round nose. I push the Lee to 1610 fps in my .458 Win Mag with H4895 and it groups < one inch @ 50yd. I do use the BPI filler. I get similar results with Rel #7 and BPI, they both leave the bore shining with the filler and either load leaves a trail of unburned powder without the BPI filler. A gas checked bullet will also burn the powder cleaner because of pressure elevation. I have Pat Marlins Checkmaker for plain base bullets on order that I plan to use with the Lee 340 RN-F and I'm anxious for delivery to try it. I am betting I can get a clean shooting load with no filler and a bit more velocity and accuracy with a gas check on that bullet and Rel #7 or Accurate 5744..

I use a heavy crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp collet crimping die and have the die adjusted for full closure of the collet for my .458 WM loads with cast bullets.

[mpmarty]

+1 on mounting a scope on a Marlin 95. I just installed an old Tasco Euro Class 1.5 - 6 power I had laying around. What a difference even at 1.5 power I shoot better and can spot my shots as they hit the target. I'm dinkin' around with 1200fps loads right now so recoil is not an issue.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

NOPE!!!!!!!! no "ulta-light" in the #1s - 45/70.

However, where the #1B lists at 8 1/4lb in the RUGER catalog, the #1s is listed at 7 1/4lbs.

Part of the weight difference is probably due to the 22" barrel as compared to 26" on the 1B.

Also, with that 45caliber hole, it kind of looks like a shotgun barrel.

Anyway, it is shoot'in just fine and is great to carry.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Swampman]

I have a #1 and a #3 in .45-70 and neither of them kick much until you get to about 1600 fps. With 30 grains of IMR-4198 under a 405 grain cast bullet I'll just say that folks will call you a liar if you try to tell them what kind of groups you're shooting.