Anyone else having success with the 6.5 "Kurtz" CB?

[Maven]

All, I know we had or even exceeded the minimum number of buyers for Lee Precision to cut the 6.5mm "Kurtz" mold (looks like a smaller version of Ly. #311407) for Swedish Mausers and others with similar bore dimensions, so how come there have been so few posts about its performance? As I'm somewhat guilty of this myself, I decided to retest it at today's range outing...and am glad that I did: That puppy is a m.o.a. shooter in my "as issued" Swedish Mauser, otherwise known as "Helga."

The load was simplicity itself, i.e., 15gr. WC 820 (My lot came with AA #9 pistol loading data.), visually inspected CB's from all 6 cavities, Lyman Super Moly lube, and WLR primers. Because of the threat of thunderstorms and heavy winds, I set up my targets @ 50 yds. Aside from a few sighting errors on my part and low contrast, i.e., overcast & hazy conditions, the group buy "Kurtz" CB performed admirably and is fully capable of 1 m.o.a. or better accuracy. (I'm doing the happy dance here!) Also, I did a bit of Leementing to the mold when I first got it and it now casts & releases bullets with ease. I know Buckshot was the point man for this mold and he deserves our praises for that, but so does whoever designed it: It's a keeper!

[Buckshot]

..............Hello Paul. Nice to see your post. I was thinking of you today, (actually you as a family re: your father in law) and that I hadn't seen you around the board lately.

Let me tell ya about those Lee 6.5 Loverins ! I cast up 3 pots' worth. Each of a different hardness (and as a consequence, diameter) and had this grandiose scheme of including the Lyman 268645 as a control and doing this phantasmagorific velocity and accuracy test.

Alas and alack, I think I had a beer and forgot. Either that or my supply of rountuits evaporated. However, I DO have these 3 coffee cans full of those boolits. They've been aging pretty well undisturbed since the moulds were distributed.

I did lube-size some several months back, and for reasons that escape me now I'd loaded them up in brass dedicated to the M38. IIRC the charges were 34.0, 35.0, 36.0, and 37.0 grs of WC872. As they were fired from a 24" bbl and not a 29" tube the velocities never did go beyond what had already been proven to work. IE, up to 1650 fps.

All that did was show (what we already knew) that it isn't really pressure but rotational velocity that does the evil deed.

...................Buckshot

[Maineboy]

Buckshot got it. I too think that some of us thought this may be the boolit that would let us shoot 1" groups at 2000 fps in our Swedes and when reality set in, interest waned.

I've had one outing with my M96 and the Kurtz boolit right after we got the moulds and that was 10 months ago. Shame on me! I had intended to return to the range with my scope sighted M38 to see if I could improve the groups, but other things got in the way. We moved to our new place a year ago and my casting and shooting time has decreased dramatically. I've gotta change that.

I've noticed there aren't many postings about other group buy boolits as well.

[Scotty]

This the boolit your talking about? Its about 135 grains and .269 in diameter.



Scotty,

[Bret4207]

I'll bet I have better than a dozen of the group buy moulds. Other than the BD45, the 358-250 Bator and the Fat 30 I haven't shot more than 50 of any of the others! Got scads of them sitting in coffee cans, plastic boxes, zip-lock baggies, you name it. But finding the time to load them up and drive the 1/2 mile to my sandpit... I mean Ballistics Research Center is just not happening.

Time, time, time. Somebody send me a big box of TIME!

Maven- Re NY and RAIN. I thought the global warming would give us some nice sunny weather. Wrong again. At least the hay is growing good, if we can ever get it in....

[StarMetal]

Maven,

I know you haven't thoroughly tested that 6.5 bullet out yet and what you have done so far is good. But, like the old Buckeroo said, the original intent of the bullet was to go past the 1650 fps threshold, say like well over 2000 fps. To me good 50 yard groups so something out of handguns, but don't impress me with long guns, that's why I hardly ever shoot at fiffy yards except maybe to get on paper. Now, if you said you shot at 2100 fps and got a 1 inch group at 100 yards, then we'd be talkin. Not a flame, like I said you just started messing with that new bullet and I'm sure more is to come yet.

Now my 260 Rem T38 Arisaka isn't a Swede, especially with a 9 twist, but I have been closing in on 1 inch groups at 100 yards at a very high velocity with 45 2.1's bullets.

Joe

[Maven]

Joe, To shoot CB's at paper targets at more than 1,800fps isn't a challenge I'm even remotely interested in. What I attempt to achieve is tiny groups @ 100yds. from a variety of "as issued" milsurp and factory rifles. The Mod. 96 Swedish Mauser because of its fast twist and the Type 56 SKS's short sight radius, gas port and not so wonderful trigger, are exceptions in so far as velocity is concerned. Reread yesterday's post: I didn't set my targets @ 100yds. because ambient lighting, which is always iffy on our range, was poor (hazy, low contrast) and a thunderstorm was brewing. When it struck, it dumped almost 3" of rain in less than 30 mins., yet it entirely missed the area only 1 mile away. I am getting ready to reload yesterday's brass so as to retest @ 100yds.

Buckshot, While it's true that I haven't posted as frequently as I used to, rest assured I do read the boards every day and will post anew when the spirit moves me.

[KevMT]

Buckshot, While it's true that I haven't posted as frequently as I used to, rest assured I do read the boards every day and will post anew when the spirit moves me.

Like others I have some cast but haven't fired any. For one thing I'm going to have to get a custom push-through sizer made. That said, Maven I'm more than happy to hear any info you may have about the 6.5 kurtz no matter what the velocity or distance. It makes figuring out where to start easier.

Kev

[StarMetal]

Maven,

And I stated that, giving you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think there's anyone that shoots anything that isn't striving to or wanting to get the smallest group. Even shotgunners demand a certain type of pattern. I believe that like jacketed bullets some guns/calibers deliver their best accuracy at the top or upper velocities, so some cast shooters want both the upper velocity and the accuracy. I believe it was Oldfeller that designed this 6.5 Kurtz for that specific reason to try to beat the curse of the 6.5 Swede not wanting to throw cast bullets at higher velocities and if you don't want the highest achievable velocity that's fine. Like Buckshot said we'd like to see if this bullet can break the velocity barrier that he mentioned. Hopefully your 100 yard test will bear some good fruits.
Thanks

Joe

[Maven]

KevMT, My M 96 has different bore & throat dimensions than others I know of. Thus, the Lyman 140gr. Loverin @ .266" is too small for my rifle. The two CB's I use, a 145gr. LBT SP and the 6.5 Kurtz must be sized to .267" and nose first, reversed to add a gas check, sized and lubed (.267"). I don't know whether the extra step is needed with the Kurtz, but I do it anyway. However, without it the LBT bullet doesn't group well at all. As for loads, 1,650 - 1,750fps seems to be the velocity that produces consistently small groups from "as issued" rifles. Buckshot mentioned this in his post and has provided some loading data as well. My powder choices are different than his, but they too are reliable and, I can't argue with the results. The only caveat is that the amount required is small and you have to be especially careful not to double charge a case. Btw, that won't happen with Buckshot's data. Having said that, this is what I've used (with LR primers) with the aforementioned CB's:

15gr. WC 820 (AA #9 burning rate)

19gr. VV N133

18-19gr. AA 5744

18-19gr. H/IMR 4198

Hope this helps, Paul

[Buckshot]

".............I believe it was Oldfeller that designed this 6.5 Kurtz for that specific reason to try to beat the curse of the 6.5 Swede".

Naw that was 45 2.1 who drew the Kurtz, modeled after the little Lyman 122gr RNHP mould I sold him. We wanted a Loverin, a FP was felt beneficial, and the whole point was to have a 6.5mm lighter then any that had been available since who knows when. It was obvious that heavier wasn't going to do it.

The Ly 122gr slugs I'd cast before selling the mould had been loaded over the same charges I'd used with the Ly 268645 @ 152 and were much faster. Well beyond what most find as the ceiling for repeatable consistant accuracy. So yes the idea behind the boolit was to maybe offer the guys a faster slug if they felt they could use it that way.

I still do intend to do a test. Basicly a test of velocity and how it affects accuracy as charges increase. We already know most Swede's can do a really fine job at the range otherwise. Wether or not I shoot at 100 remains to be seen. None of my rifles in 6.5 have scopes, and irons (especially unaltered military ) is tough for me and a lot of work at 100 yds (unless the targets are big .

...................Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

Actually, the Kurtz didn't yeild any breakthrough in velocity increase in the fast twist Swedish Mauser barrels (which is what it was hoped to do). Accuracy was better than the best the cruise missile would do in its restricted happy range, but the ceiling in the sky was still there.

I gave up on the Swede at that point and bought me a 7mm-08 Stevens for my light weight cast shooting rifle. There is a sticky round here somewhere on that project and there is a special short 7mm bullet on Midsouth and a customization of a 7mm LEE slug swimming somewhere in the sea of topics on this here list.

7mm bore size is the smallest bore/twist that you can get ready success with a cast bullet. Everything smaller is touchier (generally speaking).

Actually, the 6.5 Swedish Mauser reigns as the "advanced course" in cast bullet shooting, with the 6.5 cruise missle existing simply to provide the final exam question for that tough "no ********" course.

Them's what have posted those purty 1" 100 yard cruise missile target groups and have done repeatedly have invested the time and expertise to master the hard one. You have to do everything right .... and at a very high level of competence.

Hat's off to them -- they are the real cast bullet masters.

As far as "beating the Swede" at high velocity (200,000 rpm, 2,020 fps or more) theoretically it could be done with a VERY VERY SHORT bullet. One time-wasting madman actually machined up and weight sorted some very short 6.5mm slugs and actually did it to prove a point. But the same velocity can be achieved (and exceeded) much much easier in 7mm bore size with a slug big & heavy enough to go deer hunting with, so what is the purpose in going there in a fast twist 6.5 bore size with a tiny plinking bullet?

T'ain't no prize for going there and life is just too short to waste it chasing butterflies ......

================================

Now, how about giving me some real help on a real issue. Got me this intermittent "erunch" noise issue that has cropped up with my motorcycle that has been going on for some time now. It only seems to happen near certain streets, but one of them is close to where I live so I am hearing the noise often enough to recognize an association with that street and to be curious as to its cause.

This last time, there was a noticeable vibration that came along with the noise. I was only going about 30 miles an hour, so I doubt it was an engine bearing failure type noise.

Heck, I can't see anything that would be making a noise -- it's got me right stumped it does.

Oldfeller

[Bass Ackward]

Now, how about giving me some real help on a real issue. Got me this intermittent "erunch" noise issue that has cropped up with my motorcycle that has been going on for some time now. Oldfeller

Kelly,

The noise is all in your head. Old farts are supposed to be out on the range, not foolin around on a childs toy.

Sell your guns did ya?

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller,

John made me think before this post, is it possible you've been eating beans and the road you hear the noises on is rough or bumpy?


Maybe try riding a known rough bumpy road at 30mph and see if you hear it. So far sounds like a suspendsion problem. Try to pin down if the noise is coming from the front, the rear, or directly under you. Of course if it's suspendsion the noise would have to come from the front or rear. Let us know.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Bass, long time no talk. Yes, I've been giving the worst of the lot away to younger relatives who don't know they got stuck with something they can only shoot until the limited supply of reloaded ammo gives out ....

Gave a wash barrel M1891 away to a guy at church so he could go hunting this season, he has a complete scoped gun that will shoot 2-3 inch groups until the reloaded ammo gives out .... then I guess he's gonna have to become a reloader.

Gave a Chicom 7.65x39 to my brother's youngest son -- he and his buds blew away all the ammo in one impromtu range outing and now he is buying milsurp ammo by the large ammo tin can to feed his new addiction.

Gave away a sissy rifle to a female relative, some sort of 35 derivative of the 30-06 that she can't get to shoot very well. She says it kicks too much and won't even kill her ex-husband although she has shot him 4 times in the neck and torso (just keeps blowing off his limbs and livers and totally disenbowling him and he just keeps on getting back up and moving back in with her).

Joe, I still haven't figured out the noise yet. It only seems to happen when I am going around a corner but it seems to be independent of the brakes and wheels and it does it whether I have the clutch in or out and the gas on or off. It is a puzzlement to me.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Kelly,

Well with the clutch disengaged, that leaves from past the clutch on back through the driveline. Even though you said it's not wheel related those are always rotating whether the clutch is in or out once you're on the move. Just start checking from the clutch back, that is, the chain drive gear, the rear chain sproket, the swing arm and it's bushings, the shock or shocks, wheel bearings, fork venting and dampening system, shucks might as well throw in the speedometer cable if it has that type of system. Be a good idea to check the wheel bearing anyways, see if they have grease and are adjusted right.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

My goodness, I didn't think this particular puzzlement was all that hard.

As always, I insert clues into the posts themselves and I also include pictures in the threads so those lazy members that only read the TODAY function don't get to see all of the entire picture. This one has gotten REAL easy I would think.

Somebody give Joe a hand.

Oldfeller

[swheeler]

Quit cornering so hard, you'll rub all the chrome off those hi-way pegs!

[C1PNR]

Right up until he mentioned cornering I figured he'd just been riding near where Carpetman discards his used targets. That "erunch" noise kind of sounds like munching up small bones.

[Oldfeller]

You know, that large bore Savage has been a good puzzlement stumper twice now, havng harvested two full tags of elder members ....

..... as well as being a lot of fun to go around them 30 mph corners !!

(eeerunch!)

I'm kinda glad I gave into my yearly spring temptation to buy a bike again. Used bikes go on sale in the paper about this time thru Thanksgiving, all them wimpy summer weather campers selling them off to get some money for Christmas presents for the kiddies and all.

Check out your local paper and see if your old scoot isn't for sale.

Oldfeller