Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[StarMetal]

Another good forum posting to revisit is one of our own:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t=Unique+Swede

Funny how since time has passed since then that one of Larry's Holy Grail statements "you can't push a Loverin type bullet in the 6.5 Swede because of the rpm threshold" has not only since been disproved, but disproved by Larry himself in recent testings.

Lot's of good information on chamber throats and necks towards the last pages too.....and neck tension. Thus the reason I brought up about Larry loading those bullet way out.

[Pat I.]

Pat I find it amazing, especially one who shoots benchrest, saying he doesn't shoot that many 1/2 inch groups.

Just one more Bob and then I'm done.

SM it's real easy to post about shooting 1/2 inch groups but a lot harder when the proof has to be backed up with pudding. One 1/2 inch group doesn't a 1/2 inch rifle make and people that are honest don't claim such. I've seen some pretty small cast bullet groups in my life but the people that shot them won't ever say that that's the norm. At the CBA nationals a couple years back a guy shot a .098 or something like that and didn't end up in the winners circle because the rifle and the shooter weren't capable of repeating it on demand. The wind can blow a group together as well as blow it apart. I was in charge of the registered match program which included measuring and keeping track of records as well as compiling the match data for inclusion in the FS for about 5 years and believe me there's one heck of a lot more 1/2 inch groups being shot on the internet than have ever been shot at the bench. With both your and 45 2.1's claims you should really think about joining the CBA and coming to a national match, you'll both clean house and win some prizes. Or on the other hand you could accept my past offer of driving down this summer for a day at the range. Of course that means you have to shoot aggregates and have no excuses but I don't think that would be a problem for either one of you.

I shoot with some pretty big name shooters, especially in the PBB class, and can tell you with certainty that 1/2 inch cast bullet groups aren't all that common. And then to make the statement that most milsurps are capable of doing it if you REALLY know what you're doing is down right ridiculous. A sling shot might be capable of shooting a half inch group if you spent the next four lifetimes shooting it but that one time out of ten million means absolutely nothing. Now are you two guys going to sit there and tell me that every gun you put on the bag is capable of 1/2 inch groups on demand?

[robertbank]

OK, that is it, you all have had a chance to pee on each others pants. No more! Larry has enough information to shoot the best groups he, his rifle and his loads are capable of. When he reports back we can all go round and round again.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

OK, that is it, you all have had a chance to pee on each others pants. No more! Larry has enough information to shoot the best groups he, his rifle and his loads are capable of. When he reports back we can all go round and round again.

Take Care

Bob

Thanks Bob. I am continuing the tests and will post when I have new results.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Anything new on this front? I am waiting to see if you have luck with the group buy mould I loaned. If nothing new is going to be done, can you send the mould back I would like to try my hand again.

In edit: Sorry that the original post was pretty strongly worded. It was not meant that way. I was just mamking sure you and I were still in contact and that your project is still underway.

[Larry Gibson]

Anything new on this front? I am waiting to see if you have luck with the group buy mould I loaned. If nothing new is going to be done, can you send the mould back I would like to try my hand agian.

I've run about 500 test rounds with the bullet from your mould so far. I have some others loaded to test, weather permitting, and have some aging. I will get your mould cleaned up and on the way back. It is a good mould (I refer to it as the 3GB in defference to another) and a good bullet. However, so far I have not been able to duplicate others claimed success with the 6.5 Kurtz design. I thank you very much for the use of the mould. If you find it not to your liking on return then I will gladly purchase it from you.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Larry,

thanks for the reply. No hurry, I just wnated to make srue we still ahd activity on the project and that you and I still had good communication. Cast up what ever you need for your needs and let us know how it goes.

did you have a chance to shoot any of aged slugs cast with this mould? If so did you see any difference with aged versus just cast?

I sent a PM also.

Thanks again for the reply.

[Larry Gibson]

Well I’m at 650 test rounds with this 3GB bullet. I have made some decent progress pushing the RPM threshold using the Original buffer. I have however; neither equaled the accuracy, the BC or the velocity as reported by starmetal. I will simply address what I have found, address some issues and then proceed on with further testing.

Accuracy; in the last two tests I had narrowed accuracy down to 1.5 – 2” five shot groups with occasional 1” groups.. The problem when retested was those loads that gave that accuracy would then give 2 – 3” five shot groups. Simply put consistent accuracy could not be readily replicated to a 1 moa level. For this last test I switched from 5 shot groups to 10 shot groups to isolate the problem. In the first part of this test I began to notice a severe buildup of bullet lube on the SkyScreens (note in the picture there is pretty much the same build up of thrown lube on all 3 SkyScreens). Additionally bullet lube was splattering, albeit slightly, the face of the 100 yard targets. This was happening with Carnauba Red, LBT Blue soft and 2500+.

The faster the velocity the higher the RPM and the more the lube is thrown off the bullet as soon as it leaves the muzzle. It was clear that the lube was not being thrown off in an even or consistent manner. A fully lubed 3GB bullet carried about 1 gr of bullet lube. That 1 gr is located on the circumference of the bullet where the centrifugal force has the greatest effect. How much would losing the lube unevenly during flight upset the bullets balance? In the second half of this test I sought to find out. Bullets were loaded with the same load and then group tested at 100 yards and 200 yards. The load was 31 gr of AA4350 with Original buffer used as the filler. The loading specifics and techniques were as previously tested with success. Two lubes were used in the test; LBT Blue soft and Carnauba Red.

The rifle used for the LBT Blue soft test was a M96 Swede with issue target iron sights (the circular elevation disk in the rear sight instead of the elevation slide). I also wanted to chronograph the velocity and if accurate enough at 100 yards to measure the BC. Initially I tested bullets that had all the lube grooves filled with LBT Blue soft. On a zero target the first 5 shots went into 2” SkyScreens in front of the muzzle but also the SkyScreens in front of the target at 100 yards. That is a small opening way out there BTW! The velocity, corrected to the muzzle, was 2183 fps. That is still 200 fps short of the reported velocity, seems that all three of my 6.5 Swedes have “slow barrels”. The 100 yard 7 shot group was 2.17” with 5 shots in .85”. I thought, WOW, maybe all it took was that extra inches of barrel. However there were two flyers in that group and I’d like to say I called them but I didn’t. I then shot an 8 shot group at 200 yards and it told the tale. The group was 13”. Obviously not linear in expansion and apparent that that load with that bullet was exceeding it’s RPM threshold. I had 30 rounds of the same load for the scoped M38. A 10 shot group at 100 yards was 3.05”. I then shot 3 sighters to get on at 200 yards and then fired 7 fully LBT Blue soft lubed rounds for group. That group was 12.3”. Obviously not linear and confirming the fully lubed bullet was exceeding the RPM threshold. I then got a couple paper towels and wiped as much of the LBT Blues soft off the exposed lube grooves of the remaining 10 rounds. Those were then also fired at 200 yards. The group was 9.3”. Still not linear but obvious the removal of the lube helped decrease the adverse effect.

The second lube test was with the M38 and with bullets lubed with Carnauba Red. The test at 100 and 200 yards was with the 3GB bullets fully lubed and with only the bottom 4 grooves lubed. With the fully lubed bullets the BC was .255 at 2038 fps. The 200 yard group was 14.7” and very obviously not linear. Next the partially lubed 3GB bullet load was shot at 100 yards. The 10 shot group was 2.5” with one flyer increasing it to 3” with a velocity of 2041 fps and a BC of .258. The 200 yard 10 shot group was 5.1”. Very linear, almost perfect in fact. This load with this lube, while not of 1 moa accuracy, makes it apparent that with minimal lube the 3GB bullet can give very good accuracy up through 2040 fps without exceeding the RPM threshold. I then group tested the 3GB bullet with only the bottom 4 grooves lubed with Carnauba Red with incrementally increased charges of AA4350 up through 32.5 gr. It appears that accuracy holds up to 31.5 gr at 2083 fps, at least with Carnauba Red.

So where am I at? So far I can get reliable accuracy that is linear up through almost 2100 fps ina M38 6.5 Swede and I am happy with that. I shall continue testing though as I am going to switch back the Javelina lube as it has proven the better lube in several other high RPM tests. I have about 1,000 of the 3GB left and am still hoping to achieve at least 2 moa 10 shot accuracy at a somewhat higher velocity, at least closer than 200 – 250 fps from the reported 2380fps.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Way to go, Larry! ... felix

[45 2.1]

So where am I at? So far I can get reliable accuracy that is linear up through almost 2100 fps ina M38 6.5 Swede and I am happy with that. I shall continue testing though as I am going to switch back the Javelina lube as it has proven the better lube in several other high RPM tests. I have about 1,000 of the 3GB left and am still hoping to achieve at least 2 moa 10 shot accuracy at a somewhat higher velocity, at least closer than 200 – 250 fps from the reported 2380fps.

Larry Gibson

At least you've posted something. I think by now you've shown that there isn't any pressure excursions (and that is what the test was about....wasn't it), at least useing your methodology. BUT, you still haven't achieved the desired results either. I suggest you read the directions again and see what you don't understand about them..........would probably help you out some. As far as the velocity, the M94s will produce the 2300 fps easily, let alone the longer M38s and M96s. Accuracy, even with the cruise missle, will meet your goals even at 2,400 fps. Keep trying, you might make it.

[scrapcan]

Larry,

If you need to cast some more 3 gb bullets using the mould I have, you are welcome to a loan again. I will try to get some cast up for my use and we can ship the mould back your way.

Jeremy

[Cap'n Morgan]

Way to go, Larry! ... felix

I second that! Good work.

Interesting thing with the lube splatter. If it is showing on all three screens at 100 yards it seems to indicate that the "splattering" is getting progressively worse as the bullet is going down range. Wobbling bullet perhaps?

[Larry Gibson]

Ooops! I forgot the picture!

You can see the lube on the face of all 3 screens. There is a pretty even build up on all 3 screens and on the diffusers. Mostly little chunks that are about 1/3 to 1/2 of what's in a lube groove. Obviously it unbalances the bullets. The more lube on the bullet the longer it takes to spin off. If it all doesn't spin off then the remaining is causing enough to severely effect the accuracy as the tests show.

Larry Gibson

[Throwback]

Great work throughout Larry!

[45 2.1]

Ooops! I forgot the picture!

You can see the lube on the face of all 3 screens. There is a pretty even build up on all 3 screens and on the diffusers. Mostly little chunks that are about 1/3 to 1/2 of what's in a lube groove. Obviously it unbalances the bullets. The more lube on the bullet the longer it takes to spin off. If it all doesn't spin off then the remaining is causing enough to severely effect the accuracy as the tests show.

Larry Gibson

The obvious solution is to use a low viscosity lube.......... give it a try. Neither Joe or I have a problem with lube splatters, but we use our own lube formulas.

[Pat I.]

Nice report Larry. With the LBT you could easily get away with the bottom groove and the space over the check filled. Like I said before the only thing you can do wrong with LBT lube is use too much. I never thought the Loverin designs were meant to carry lube in all the grooves anyway.

[StarMetal]

This is what I'm finding with the lubes. First I'm getting nothing on the face of my chronograph and I usually am bad for placing it close. Not close enough so that the powder flash affects the reading. The muzzle of my Swede is much like the muzzle of my 6.5 Grendel after shooting....just about non existent lube star. Here is a picture of the Swede muzzle after quite a few round shot from it:


I'm shooting Loverins and I lube all the grooves. There is no way in the world my Swede nor my 6.5 Grendel would survive lubing just the gas check groove (the remainder of the shank that the check doesn't cover) and just the one groove there after. I would be streaking with lead. Now the 6.5x54MS gets more of a lube star then my Swede. Here is a picture of it with a good number of rounds fired from it:


I'm definitely not getting lube flung off by the high rpm. I find my lube and LTB Blue to be the best I've found for my application here, but I haven't tried 357maximum's lube, which I have some from the famous maker himself! I will definitely be trying it out soon. I have a batch of the same recipe but made by BaBore also. Thank both of you guys for your generosity.

Another curiosity is we know I'm shooting the longer barreled M96 Swede. My 6.5x54MS is wearing a 23 inch barrel. The Swede has a twist of 7.8 and the MS has a twist of 8.0. This is extremely close and not enough to see a difference. Scientifically that is 216923.07 rpm for the Swede and 211500.00 for the MS. Personally I don't see the 5423.07 difference as making a difference. My point with all this is to show that my MS gets the same high velocity range that the Swede is getting with accuracy and that done with a shorter barrel. To press the point further home, even if my chronograph was way off (which I highly doubt) the short barrel is still equaling the longer barrel albeit with a smaller powder charge of the same powder. Before anyone asks how can this be it's because the MS has a much smaller case capacity.

In closing I do feel that there a lots of things that can influence the outcome of your HV 6.5 Swede shooting and firmly believe type of lube is one of them. LBT is one of the tops for HV shooting. Veral knows what he was doing. I wanted to make something close to that and I think my soap lube is a step in that direction. I initially started with the LBT and the MS rifle, but when I got the Swede it was my soap lube all the way. My LBT is sitting idle in my Lyman #45.

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

Cutting down on the amount of LBT and Carnauba Red definitely increased accuracy. No doubt some probably think that the bullet losing lube like that can’t possibly cause the inaccuracy problems mentioned. Well, let me show you something. Look at the target pictured. I had some of the fully LBT lubed loads left and though to really give them a fair shake as far as “seasoning” the bore goes. The barrel had been cleaned after the Carnauba Red lubed bullets and had 20+ shots of LBT lubed bullets in it to foul or season the bore. I With 15 shots left I decided to group all 15 shots through the “seasoned” bore. I started with the bottom aiming point which was low in the screen window. Shot #5 went wide and did not read as it was very close to the side diffuser. I switched to the top aiming point and fired a pretty good 5 shots right at 2”. Shot #6 dropped way low but I sat there thinking, and ignoring the previous #5 shot, that I must have aimed at the wrong diamond. Funny how you can convince yourself of such but that 2” group had such promise……

So like a dummy I shot a 7th shot. It was so far a flyer that it went over the top of the front 2 diffusers and nailed the 3rd diffuser destroying it. You can see the additional marks and tears in the target from the diffuser fragments. Fortunately it was just the diffuser and not a SkyScreen. I quit shooting any more of those loads at that target at just shot them at a spot on the 200 yard berm; they hit anywhere’s from 6 to 15” (estimated) from the aiming point in no particular pattern. Based on this and similar not so good results in the .308W HV tests I’m about done with LBT Blue. I’ve Carnauba Red in the 450 now and will work a bit more with it and then switch back to Javelina and Lars 2500+. They both worked fine in the .308W HV tests (up through 2600+ fps. I must say that LBT Blue Soft worked very well on Bass’s LBT .30 cal bullet but it had only 3 lube grooves (including the GC groove). They were also fairly shallow grooves. I am leery of leading with all the unlubed bearing surface in front of just the first 2 -3 grooves on the 3GB bullet.

Note; the speck of LBT lube about an inch under the top Load:______ happened with the 6th shot low flyer.

I am still trying to get at least 2 moa of linear accuracy out of this bullet at the 2380 – 2400 fps starmetal claimed in his first HV 6.5 report. He did that with the 6.5 MS if I recall right and it had a 23 – 24” barrel. If so then there is no reason the M38 Swede should not be able to do the same. I was quite disappointed to get 200 fps less than his reported velocity in the M96 with the same load. I know the Oehler is reading correctly (actually both the M35P and the M43) because I always test them with a “reference” rifle/ammo before conducting tests like these. In this case the M118SB ammo’s velocity and psi were in the middle of the readings I have obtained in the last 2 years using it. The ES of the velocity has only varied 32 fps in a 40 degree temperature range over the last 2 years. That is very consistent. The reference velocity was 2677 fps out of the 24” barrel for this test. I have requested a sampling of his bullets from him to no avail as perhaps that might explain the difference. Some might suspect fast barrel vs slow barrel but a 200 fps spread is really quite large. Besides all 4 of my 6.5 Swedes give consistent expected velocities with factory ammunition, I have posted some of those in my tests.

I will continue to test.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Larry

I have a 1.385 long 250 gr 30 caliber bullet that I had cut with one grease groove and all of the bullets I shoot out of my 30x47 at 2600 fps have one grease groove. Maybe you'd have to fill two grooves on the Loverin and the space over the check but you can get by with just a little lube on cast bullets. When the temps start dipping I even remove the lube from the groove and just use the space over the check with the 30x47. You might have to use a harder alloy or HT the WWs but the less lube you have to use the better off you are.

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

I had the GC groove and the 3 grooves above it filled with Carnauba Red on the best test that gave linear accuracy at 200 yards. That was with 31 gr AA4350. I then bumped up trying 31.5, 32 and 32.5 gr. accuracy at 100 seemed good with the 31.5 gr load but got increasingly worse above that. I might as well go ahead and try it with just 2 and 3 grooves filled on my next test. If that works or shows any promise I will revisit the LBT Blue Soft. With the javelina i was going to just lube the bottom 4 grooves and maybe put a very light coat of LLA on the exposed driving bands. If none of those work then I will have run the gamut with AA4350 and this bullet. I will try 3100 for a slower powder and then Varget for a slightly faster powder. Hopefully might get the first of this testing done this week.

Larry Gibson