Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[45 2.1]

Ok, so explain this: Joe claims to get 3/4" groups Joe has shot under that a little. Most people here cannot (some can and do though) shoot a 0.5 MOA group with lead at 100 yds and past. One needs to have the proper technique to be able to do that. That isn't benchrest technique either. Once you find how to do that with simple tooling, you will wonder why you couldn't do it before. Little things can have big effects on what you do........... and probably can't even tell us what his neck clearance is (based upon many posts and pms I think it's huge) and I can assume you get oustanding accuracy as well with your minimal clearance, although you STILL haven't explained how you deal with the tapered chamber. Larry may have a tapered chamber due to reamer tolerence and sharpening, BUT i'm shooting several standard military issue Swedes and i've had no problems along that line. He hasn't shot well enough to have that influence his results whatsoever either. Maybe if he gets his tolerences tight enough he may see some effects. Larry is working with pretty tight tolerances too not really, but his tests haven't yeilded the golden HV accuracy yet and won't until he figures it out, if he does.......... I conclude that neck clearance matters much less than you say it does for the Swede you have the right to assume anything you want, but you need to realize you don't know how its done yet and you have to improve on what you've done. Keep trying and you may figure it out. It took Joe quite some time even with instruction., and it's not a valid excuse for Larry's results so far Don't forget what else was said about the neck. Ignoring the other facets will leave you resultless. There are several ways to achieve results and you were only told one.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Sorry to be hard on you. I think you should do what you want to do, but don't post it ahead of time. Then go out and shoot the tests and come back and post them and what you done. The way to do this is to first just do it, then play with all the "variables" and see what they result in. Don't play with so many "variables" that are off the beaten path of original instructions. At least keep mum about them until you shot them. Frankly being that you can't use a .268 bullet in your rifles you will unfortunately have a harder time doing if at all possible. Once I got the right buffer, the right level, and powder I did it. I only messed with the factory brass very little until recently. So with the right fill of the right buffer in the correct thicker neck brass along with a powder that wanted to contribute I got it...without many things you've been doing. Then I've done it again and again with other powders and loads.

Bob told me how to do this, sort of. He said use shot shell buffer. I bought some and started shooting. Lousy results. Then he told me a specific buffer. Got that, still no good. Then he said fatter bullets. I opened up my sizer. Then he said I had to have thicker case necks. Got the 06 brass and when I tried that along with the right level of buffer bingo!!! I won't lie to you I done a lot of shooting because I really really wanted to be able to do it. I wasted lots of powder, primers, and bullets starting off with factory brass and wrong buffer. After Bob straightened me up it didn't take long till I done it. Bob will tell you that he was totally amazed I got the 4350 to do it in the Swede. That's the only deviation from what Bob told me. I'm still using the thicker necked 06 cases, I'm still seating the base of the bullet to the base of the necks. It's unfortunate that you can't utilize a .268 bullet in the neck. I find it strange my chamber neck is about 305 and yours is what .308 but yet your throat is tighter then mine. Strange.

[Larry Gibson]

Have you thought about giving Turk a consistent low velocity plinking/target load? I'm not good in that area with the Swede as most my work on it is HV.

I posted my Unique load recently in another thread, just don't remember where and this server is so unreliable I haven't done a search. I'm not at home where my data is and I don't want to guess at it. Could you search it and post it for turk?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Sorry to be hard on you. I think you should do what you want to do, but don't post it ahead of time. Then go out and shoot the tests and come back and post them and what you done. The way to do this is to first just do it, then play with all the "variables" and see what they result in. Don't play with so many "variables" that are off the beaten path of original instructions. Joe, stop and think about this a little bit. I wasn't dreaming up this technique myself, I was following instructions, vague as they were. That meansthings had to be discussed in advance so I could at least attempt following the instructions. I have been asked to do several side bar tests by those who have supported me with moulds, bullets, primers, GCs, sizers and lubes. I do not think it unreasonable to mention in this thread, my thread at that, that I acknowledge their assistance and will conduct those tests for them. I have not yet done any of them. The tests I have conducted are based on following your instructions and 45 2.1's. Quite frankly, those instructions have contradicted each other numerous times. So what was I to do but conduct the tests as best as I could figure out. You don't like my tests or the way I do them and that is to bad. I, obviously, am more methodical in my reporting than you. However, you confess to conducting a lot of shooting, tests, before you got it. So what's wrong with me having to do the same before I "got it"? Seems you and 45 2.1 say it is difficult to do then piss and moan because I haven't got it easily.....confusing to me and everyone else.At least keep mum about them until you shot them. You reported the first sub moa groups with your Swede were ith AC'd WW?pb alloy. Then you say you use WQ'd alloy. So I say it appears the AC'd WW/pb alloyed bullet I am using is too soft so I am changing to a harder alloy. A change like that is adding to many varables? It is exactly what you have done....what is your point as you have me clearly confused?Probably be better if you and 45 2.1 would wait unil I do shoot the tests before making negative remarks. I already have proven a coupleassumptions of the both of you incrrect. A couple are that this technique is "dangerous" and like to cause excessive pressure spikes. That has not proven to be the case. Also the way to determine the amount of powder was certainly not correct (even joe agree's on that one) especially with 3100. There are a couple others but they don't matter. I think you and 45 2.1 are prone to making too many excuses in advance. You know, every rifle is not capable of .5 moa as 45 2.1 seems to insinuate. This is especially thecase with milsurp rifles. Could it be that my M38 is only capable of 1.4 moa that I hav achieved? I don't know but further testing will find out, 45 2.1's criticism aside.Frankly being that you can't use a .268 bullet in your rifles you will unfortunately have a harder time doing if at all possible. Once I got the right buffer, the right level, and powder I did it. I only messed with the factory brass very little until recently. So with the right fill of the right buffer in the correct thicker neck brass along with a powder that wanted to contribute I got it...without many things you've been doing. Then I've done it again and again with other powders and loads. You've made us all painfully aware of that. The problem is no one else is doing it or at least they haven't posted as to their abilities. We only have your claims ad those of 45 2.1 of which no one else seems to be able to duplicate. That strikes the rest of the work as strange, doesn't it you?

Bob told me how to do this, sort of. The "sort of" seems to be the problem.He said use shot shell buffer. I bought some and started shooting. Lousy results. Then he told me a specific buffer. Got that, still no good. Then he said fatter bullets. I opened up my sizer. Then he said I had to have thicker case necks. Got the 06 brass and when I tried that along with the right level of buffer bingo!!! I won't lie to you I done a lot of shooting because I really really wanted to be able to do it. I wasted lots of powder, primers, and bullets starting off with factory brass and wrong buffer. After Bob straightened me up it didn't take long till I done it. So if you did all that testing and shooting before you "got it" what's your problem with me doing the same?Bob will tell you that he was totally amazed I got the 4350 to do it in the Swede. That's the only deviation from what Bob told me. I'm still using the thicker necked 06 cases, I am to.I'm still seating the base of the bullet to the base of the necks. I was seating the .268 bullets to the base of the necks also but they were damaged on chamberig. I then partially sized and accuracy improved. I then seated the parially sized bullets out to the leade and accuracy improved even more. So what's the problem with those changes as long as they result in improved accuracy? It's unfortunate that you can't utilize a .268 bullet in the neck. I find it strange my chamber neck is about 305 and yours is what .308 but yet your throat is tighter then mine. Strange. What I find strange is that I have 4 Swedes and all four of them have tighter necks than yours. Also several others have posted that the chamber necks of their Swedes are closer to those of mine than yours. All of the chamber necks and throats of all 4 of my Swedes are tapered. Several ohers who post here say their Swedes are tapered also. Yet your Swede and 45 2.1's are somehow not. I find those contradictions strange indeed.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Ok, so explain this: Joe claims to get 3/4" groups Joe has shot under that a little. Most people here cannot (some can and do though) shoot a 0.5 MOA group with lead at 100 yds and past. One needs to have the proper technique to be able to do that. That isn't benchrest technique either. Once you find how to do that with simple tooling, you will wonder why you couldn't do it before. Little things can have big effects on what you do........... and probably can't even tell us what his neck clearance is (based upon many posts and pms I think it's huge) and I can assume you get oustanding accuracy as well with your minimal clearance, although you STILL haven't explained how you deal with the tapered chamber. Larry may have a tapered chamber due to reamer tolerence and sharpening, BUT i'm shooting several standard military issue Swedes and i've had no problems along that line. He hasn't shot well enough to have that influence his results whatsoever either. Maybe if he gets his tolerences tight enough he may see some effects. Larry is working with pretty tight tolerances too not really, but his tests haven't yeilded the golden HV accuracy yet and won't until he figures it out, if he does.......... I conclude that neck clearance matters much less than you say it does for the Swede you have the right to assume anything you want, but you need to realize you don't know how its done yet and you have to improve on what you've done. Keep trying and you may figure it out. It took Joe quite some time even with instruction., and it's not a valid excuse for Larry's results so far Don't forget what else was said about the neck. Ignoring the other facets will leave you resultless. There are several ways to achieve results and you were only told one.

Well, how IS it done? Every time you make a new suggestion for improving our Swede accuracy (adding compacting buffer, using '06 Mil brass, lighter boolits like the Kurtz, fireforming tricks, hard necks, specific amount of neck tension, ad nauseum) and someone tries it without much improvement, your responses insinuate that they still haven't figured out the "trick". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input (especially since this thread is Larry's and the point is he is trying to prove you're right) and you could as well have said nothing, but you ultimately haven't helped any of us much by continuing to enshroud this in mystery.

Larry's tried a bunch of different things and gotten some good data and some groups moving in the right direction, if there is some kind of basic technique (a "how it's done", if you will) that he's overlooking to get all the way home then please throw the man a bone! Perhaps the rest of us will learn something, too.

Gear

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Sorry to be hard on you. I think you should do what you want to do, but don't post it ahead of time. Then go out and shoot the tests and come back and post them and what you done. The way to do this is to first just do it, then play with all the "variables" and see what they result in. Don't play with so many "variables" that are off the beaten path of original instructions. Joe, stop and think about this a little bit. I wasn't dreaming up this technique myself, I was following instructions, vague as they were. That meansthings had to be discussed in advance so I could at least attempt following the instructions. I have been asked to do several side bar tests by those who have supported me with moulds, bullets, primers, GCs, sizers and lubes. I do not think it unreasonable to mention in this thread, my thread at that, that I acknowledge their assistance and will conduct those tests for them. I have not yet done any of them. The tests I have conducted are based on following your instructions and 45 2.1's. Quite frankly, those instructions have contradicted each other numerous times. So what was I to do but conduct the tests as best as I could figure out. You don't like my tests or the way I do them and that is to bad. I, obviously, am more methodical in my reporting than you. However, you confess to conducting a lot of shooting, tests, before you got it. So what's wrong with me having to do the same before I "got it"? Seems you and 45 2.1 say it is difficult to do then piss and moan because I haven't got it easily.....confusing to me and everyone else.At least keep mum about them until you shot them. You reported the first sub moa groups with your Swede were ith AC'd WW?pb alloy. Then you say you use WQ'd alloy. So I say it appears the AC'd WW/pb alloyed bullet I am using is too soft so I am changing to a harder alloy. A change like that is adding to many varables? It is exactly what you have done....what is your point as you have me clearly confused?Probably be better if you and 45 2.1 would wait unil I do shoot the tests before making negative remarks. I already have proven a coupleassumptions of the both of you incrrect. A couple are that this technique is "dangerous" and like to cause excessive pressure spikes. That has not proven to be the case. Also the way to determine the amount of powder was certainly not correct (even joe agree's on that one) especially with 3100. There are a couple others but they don't matter. I think you and 45 2.1 are prone to making too many excuses in advance. You know, every rifle is not capable of .5 moa as 45 2.1 seems to insinuate. This is especially thecase with milsurp rifles. Could it be that my M38 is only capable of 1.4 moa that I hav achieved? I don't know but further testing will find out, 45 2.1's criticism aside.Frankly being that you can't use a .268 bullet in your rifles you will unfortunately have a harder time doing if at all possible. Once I got the right buffer, the right level, and powder I did it. I only messed with the factory brass very little until recently. So with the right fill of the right buffer in the correct thicker neck brass along with a powder that wanted to contribute I got it...without many things you've been doing. Then I've done it again and again with other powders and loads. You've made us all painfully aware of that. The problem is no one else is doing it or at least they haven't posted as to their abilities. We only have your claims ad those of 45 2.1 of which no one else seems to be able to duplicate. That strikes the rest of the work as strange, doesn't it you?

Bob told me how to do this, sort of. The "sort of" seems to be the problem.He said use shot shell buffer. I bought some and started shooting. Lousy results. Then he told me a specific buffer. Got that, still no good. Then he said fatter bullets. I opened up my sizer. Then he said I had to have thicker case necks. Got the 06 brass and when I tried that along with the right level of buffer bingo!!! I won't lie to you I done a lot of shooting because I really really wanted to be able to do it. I wasted lots of powder, primers, and bullets starting off with factory brass and wrong buffer. After Bob straightened me up it didn't take long till I done it. So if you did all that testing and shooting before you "got it" what's your problem with me doing the same?Bob will tell you that he was totally amazed I got the 4350 to do it in the Swede. That's the only deviation from what Bob told me. I'm still using the thicker necked 06 cases, I am to.I'm still seating the base of the bullet to the base of the necks. I was seating the .268 bullets to the base of the necks also but they were damaged on chamberig. I then partially sized and accuracy improved. I then seated the parially sized bullets out to the leade and accuracy improved even more. So what's the problem with those changes as long as they result in improved accuracy? It's unfortunate that you can't utilize a .268 bullet in the neck. I find it strange my chamber neck is about 305 and yours is what .308 but yet your throat is tighter then mine. Strange. What I find strange is that I have 4 Swedes and all four of them have tighter necks than yours. Also several others have posted that the chamber necks of their Swedes are closer to those of mine than yours. All of the chamber necks and throats of all 4 of my Swedes are tapered. Several ohers who post here say their Swedes are tapered also. Yet your Swede and 45 2.1's are somehow not. I find those contradictions strange indeed.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I was talking with Bob and we got onto throat casts. Way back when Oldfeller was here he did a big survey of throat chamber cast of all the members who would summit one of their Swede. Bob stated it was a lot of casts that Oldfeller collected. Bob and Kelly then came up with the some 6.5 Group buys. This included the Cruise Missile. Now these bullets were designed off of all the throat casts. I have the original bullets and I must say they fit my Swede like Kelly and Bob used my rifle for the model. The point of this is that apparently your rifles and those of the so called people pm'ing you that their throats ( and chambers) are like yours are really in the minority, not the majority.

I further suggested to Bob that perhaps you should shoot a ton of jacketed out of your Swede to wear that throat. Bob agreed and then came up with another idea. He would like to see a jacketed group from your main cast test rifle. He says he may be able to tell how it shoots jacketed if maybe your rifle is or isn't up to successfully doing this HV test with cast. This would be the best you can do with any jacket and powder. If you have done this in the past then just post what it was.

Also instead of sizing a dual diameter, can you with a good crimp, force the bullet to into the throat? The crimp should prevent the bullet from trying to push deeper in the case. I know my crimps don't let the bullet move. If so Bob says load the .268 and shoot them this way. We think if they seat and don't shove back into the case that this may be the way to get your rifle to shoot.

P.S. I did post your Unique load to Turk and you can read it to see if it is the correct one. I went back through 20 pages of your posts.

[45 2.1]

Well, how IS it done? Every time you make a new suggestion for improving our Swede accuracy (adding compacting buffer, using '06 Mil brass, lighter boolits like the Kurtz, fireforming tricks, hard necks, specific amount of neck tension, ad nauseum) and someone tries it without much improvement, your responses insinuate that they still haven't figured out the "trick". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input (especially since this thread is Larry's and the point is he is trying to prove you're right) Brother Larry has his own agenda going on here besides what he says. and you could as well have said nothing, but you ultimately haven't helped any of us much by continuing to enshroud this in mystery. What I know and what you know and what Larry knows (along with everybody else) is different in many respects. I can watch you ,or anybody else for that matter, load cartridges for accuracy and tell you things that aren't conducive to accuracy. What you or I or Larry can't do is divine what somebody else is doing toward that. Your method of loading will let you (or not) get what accuracy is available. Provided you have a well put together rifle (some aren't), you can achieve 0.5 MOA from most of the military firearms. The limiting factor is what you feed the rifle and your ability to shoot well.

Larry's tried a bunch of different things and gotten some good data and some groups moving in the right direction, if there is some kind of basic technique (a "how it's done", if you will) that he's overlooking Just how would anybody here know how he loads? He says many things, but not that. to get all the way home then please throw the man a bone! Would that be a Turkey or Ham bone? Hee hee Perhaps the rest of us will learn something, too. You have to want to learn something and improve before that can happen. This isn't a recipe........ it is a method to get you "learned up" as 357 Maximum calls it. Many things most people here take for granted are not conducive to good accuracy. Trying to change those things requires some time and faith that what your told is right.............

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I was talking with Bob and we got onto throat casts. Way back when Oldfeller was here he did a big survey of throat chamber cast of all the members who would summit one of their Swede. Bob stated it was a lot of casts that Oldfeller collected. Bob and Kelly then came up with the some 6.5 Group buys. This included the Cruise Missile. Now these bullets were designed off of all the throat casts. I have the original bullets and I must say they fit my Swede like Kelly and Bob used my rifle for the model. The point of this is that apparently your rifles and those of the so called people pm'ing you that their throats ( and chambers) are like yours are really in the minority, not the majority. Sorry, but I disagree, I think your rifle(s) is the anomoly. I do agree that many Swedes are out thre with worn throats from lots of shooting. However, there are a great many, probably more, with very nice bores like the 4 of mine including the M96 I have. Is having a morn throat now a new criteria to success?

I further suggested to Bob that perhaps you should shoot a ton of jacketed out of your Swede to wear that throat. Bob agreed If you guys think I'm going to go through the expense and time of shooting thousands of rounds through my Swede just to wear the throat for the sake of this experiment you are sadly mistaken. I have offered to pay for the expense of you sendng your rifle for me to test and you have refused. I am not going to wear out my rifles barrel in an attempt to prove you right. You and 45 2.1 may think that is reasonable but I certainly don't. You are the one who claims to do this with just about any rifle you touch. Why an't the rest of us? One othe question continues to nag at me; thousand of HP shooters spend thousans of $s having rifles built with the most expensive componants to achive consistent accuracy under 1 moa using the best bulets money can buy. Many want to claim 1/2 moa or better with such rifles but the truth is most are basically moa rifles over a string of 20 - 25 shots. Now you and 45 2.1 want us (maybe just me) to believe that you have a stock m96 that shoots 1/2 moa consitently and that is the norm? Even with our beloved cast bullets? Please excuse my disbelief but I seriously have to question that. and then came up with another idea. He would like to see a jacketed group from your main cast test rifle. He says he may be able to tell how it shoots jacketed if maybe your rifle is or isn't up to successfully doing this HV test with cast. This would be the best you can do with any jacket and powder. If you have done this in the past then just post what it was. With the 2X scout scope on the M38 it shoots the 100 gr Sierra HP into 3/4 - 1", with the 120 MK or the Nosler 120 BT the same, with the 129 Hornady SP it shoots into right at 1", all at 100 yards.

Also instead of sizing a dual diameter, can you with a good crimp, force the bullet to into the throat? Come on starmetal, don't you read anything I've written about what I've done in my tests? I wrote one heck of lot about the bullet to throat fit and what I was doing and what the results were. What you ask about is EXACTLY what I did. Please READ my test results, if you had you wouldn't be asking these redundant questions.The crimp should prevent the bullet from trying to push deeper in the case. I know my crimps don't let the bullet move. If so Bob says load the .268 and shoot them this way. We think if they seat and don't shove back into the case that this may be the way to get your rifle to shoot. Again, had the two of you read my tests you would know what you are suggesti I d IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID!!!!!

P.S. I did post your Unique load to Turk and you can read it to see if it is the correct one. I went back through 20 pages of your posts. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

I was talking with Bob and we got onto throat casts. Way back when Oldfeller was here he did a big survey of throat chamber cast of all the members who would summit one of their Swede. Bob stated it was a lot of casts that Oldfeller collected. Bob and Kelly then came up with the some 6.5 Group buys. This included the Cruise Missile. Now these bullets were designed off of all the throat casts. I have the original bullets and I must say they fit my Swede like Kelly and Bob used my rifle for the model. The point of this is that apparently your rifles and those of the so called people pm'ing you that their throats ( and chambers) are like yours are really in the minority, not the majority. Sorry, but I disagree, I think your rifle(s) is the anomoly. I do agree that many Swedes are out thre with worn throats from lots of shooting. However, there are a great many, probably more, with very nice bores like the 4 of mine including the M96 I have. Is having a morn throat now a new criteria to success?

I further suggested to Bob that perhaps you should shoot a ton of jacketed out of your Swede to wear that throat. Bob agreed If you guys think I'm going to go through the expense and time of shooting thousands of rounds through my Swede just to wear the throat for the sake of this experiment you are sadly mistaken. I have offered to pay for the expense of you sendng your rifle for me to test and you have refused. I am not going to wear out my rifles barrel in an attempt to prove you right. You and 45 2.1 may think that is reasonable but I certainly don't. You are the one who claims to do this with just about any rifle you touch. Why an't the rest of us? One othe question continues to nag at me; thousand of HP shooters spend thousans of $s having rifles built with the most expensive componants to achive consistent accuracy under 1 moa using the best bulets money can buy. Many want to claim 1/2 moa or better with such rifles but the truth is most are basically moa rifles over a string of 20 - 25 shots. Now you and 45 2.1 want us (maybe just me) to believe that you have a stock m96 that shoots 1/2 moa consitently and that is the norm? Even with our beloved cast bullets? Please excuse my disbelief but I seriously have to question that. and then came up with another idea. He would like to see a jacketed group from your main cast test rifle. He says he may be able to tell how it shoots jacketed if maybe your rifle is or isn't up to successfully doing this HV test with cast. This would be the best you can do with any jacket and powder. If you have done this in the past then just post what it was. With the 2X scout scope on the M38 it shoots the 100 gr Sierra HP into 3/4 - 1", with the 120 MK or the Nosler 120 BT the same, with the 129 Hornady SP it shoots into right at 1", all at 100 yards.

Also instead of sizing a dual diameter, can you with a good crimp, force the bullet to into the throat? Come on starmetal, don't you read anything I've written about what I've done in my tests? I wrote one heck of lot about the bullet to throat fit and what I was doing and what the results were. What you ask about is EXACTLY what I did. Yes but you've done this too, which is pulled from one of your posts The brass is well fire formed and necks are trued. Primers used were Remington 9 1/2s. The bullet is a 266455 that drops at .267-.268 when cast of WW/lead 50/50 alloy. The test barrel is .266 in the grooves. The throat is also .266 and an unsized .267 bullet gets shoved back into the case by the chamber throat. I seat the GCs first, then push them nose first into the .266 H die in the 450. The bullets are then lubed in the same .266 H die with LBT Soft Blue lube. The bullet fully dressed weighs right at 130 gr and looks exactly like the one starmetal posted that he got from 45 2.1. Please READ my test results, if you had you wouldn't be asking these redundant questions.The crimp should prevent the bullet from trying to push deeper in the case. I know my crimps don't let the bullet move. If so Bob says load the .268 and shoot them this way. We think if they seat and don't shove back into the case that this may be the way to get your rifle to shoot. Again, had the two of you read my tests you would know what you are suggesti I d IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID!!!!!

P.S. I did post your Unique load to Turk and you can read it to see if it is the correct one. I went back through 20 pages of your posts. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Larry Gibson

All I can say is that my shooting of the Swede, the Mannlicher, and the Grendel aren't claims, they are solid facts. You even requested all the targets for the Mannlicher and the pictures of the chronograph screen readings...which all I did...and still it's called claims. Well yeah, considering you and your followers can't do it, guess it's hard to swallow. Of all the fighting and arguing over the 6.5 and the rpm threshold threads....the thing I resent the most from all members that have done it, including you....is being called a liar...or that the shooting was "claims".

Ah, from what I've seen and been told a Swede with a scope should shoot a good jacketed load into at least 1/2 inch at 100. Well looks like I need to load some jacketed for my Swede....see what she does with the j words.

[Larry Gibson]

1/2" moa Swedes? Now why do all those HP boys waste their thousands of dollars on match rifles that shoot 1/2" moa when they could just buy a Swede instead.........makes you wonder now does't it?

Starmetal shooting jacketed bullets out of his Swede....hold on boys we're about to see accuracy world records shattered! We will probably see 5 consecutive .0000000000000000000000000...and maybe finally a....1" goups! If I sound facitius and disbelieving perhaps it is because I am. I've no more time to wste on this discussion. I m just going to continue my tests and report the results. If stametal ad 45 2.5 want to continue to build their repetoire of excuses tey are free to do so. I shall succeed or no, the proof will be in the shooting, not in these silly discusions.

I'll post agian when I have more test results.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

You'll be back Larry, you can't stay away from stuff that you "think" you know about.

Oh yeah, I figured your problem out getting the Swede to shoot. I don't think you can shoot!!!!! We not all gifted with the eagle eye in firearm shooting abilities.

[Pat I.]

We not all gifted with the eagle eye in firearm shooting abilities.

Or a 1/2" key on our keyboards.

[45 2.1]

1/2" moa Swedes? Now why do all those HP boys waste their thousands of dollars on match rifles that shoot 1/2" moa when they could just buy a Swede instead.........makes you wonder now does't it? Some people don't think they can do that. Seems your one of those folks. And other people just like switch barrel rifles.

Starmetal shooting jacketed bullets out of his Swede....hold on boys we're about to see accuracy world records shattered! We will probably see 5 consecutive .0000000000000000000000000...and maybe finally a....1" goups! If I sound facitius and disbelieving perhaps it is because I am. Quite apparent on that statement. I've no more time to wste on this discussion. I m just going to continue my tests and report the results. If stametal ad 45 2.5 want to continue to build their repetoire of excuses tey are free to do so. I shall succeed or no, the proof will be in the shooting, not in these silly discusions. Yes, the proof will be in the shooting............ the item proved or disproved will be your ability to duplicate the already posted results by Starmetal. It will be interesting to see if you can even match him.

I'll post agian when I have more test results. Positive results would be nice to see.

Larry Gibson

Or a 1/2" key on our keyboards.

Looks like Pat hasn't ever shot a 1/2 MOA group or smaller. You might try a Miller and see better results. The breech seat guys could walk all over a 1/2" group. BTDT and seen it in competition.

[Pat I.]

I suppose I've shot a 1/2" group now and then but not with the frequency certain people here claim. But then again I'm only shooting a BR rig and not a milsurp. Maybe if I traded in my rifle for a MN or 98 I'd improve my scores and groups.

By the way, and not taking anything at all away from the single shots because they're pretty amazing and some people I consider good friends shoot them, all of the HVY class CBA records are smaller than the PPB. But then again why am I telling you that since I'm sure you've BTDT tested that too and outshot all the CBA records. One example in each hand horseback at full throttle through a rough draw with a tornado nipping at your heels and breach seating bullets with your toes.

[45 2.1]

I suppose I've shot a 1/2" group now and then but not with the frequency certain people here claim. But then again I'm only shooting a BR rig and not a milsurp. Maybe if I traded in my rifle for a MN or 98 I'd improve my scores and groups. It all depends on what you put in the rifle and how well you can handle it......................

By the way, and not taking anything at all away from the single shots because they're pretty amazing and some people I consider good friends shoot them, all of the HVY class CBA records are smaller than the PPB. I've seen a couple of guys shooting the Miller breechseating a tapered plain base shoot under 1/4" at 100 yds and a friend with an old 40ish caliber Ballard do about 0.34" at 100 yds. Thats why they have seperate classes. Whats fun is to see someone with a railgun show up. But then again why am I telling you that since I'm sure you've BTDT tested that too Why yes, I have. and outshot all the CBA records Not in matches ..... mainly because I won't attend anymore due to some of the company attending them.. One example in each hand horseback at full throttle through a rough draw with a tornado nipping at your heels and breach seating bullets with your toes. Sorry, I don't use your methods. No wonder you have trouble.

[Pat I.]

No wonder you have trouble.[/B]

My only problem compared to you is that I have the handicap of doing my shooting while I'm awake.

"Not in matches ..... mainly because I won't attend anymore due to some of the company attending them."

Mind saying where and when?

[45 2.1]

My only problem compared to you is that I have the handicap of doing my shooting while I'm awake.

"Not in matches ..... mainly because I won't attend anymore due to some of the company attending them."

Mind saying where and when?

You certainly live up to the thoughts others have, that know and shoot with you have told me. Maybe you should go back to the CBA forum where your a moderator and can insult people freely without being warned again about that here. Because of your attitude you will not find out where and when.

[Pat I.]

You certainly live up to the thoughts others have, that know and shoot with you have told me. Maybe you should go back to the CBA forum where your a moderator and can insult people freely without being warned again about that here.

Since I seriously doubt you know anyone that knows me or that I shoot with you're grasping at straws aren't you? Don't remember being warned and hope I never am for pointing out the obvious.

Because of your attitude you will not find out where and when.

What a surprise!!

You really should try to pay heed to your little byline. Besides that have a nice day.

[robertbank]

This thread is about to go sideways. As popular as this subject is the thread will get closed if the off topic remarks aren't ended. Let Larry do the testing and keep your comments related to his posted results.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Take a look at this thread on the Shooters forum:

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=60401

Those Kimber Swedes aren't benchrest rifles. Of course we'll hear from Larry and Pat how they aren't Swedes since Kimber restocked them and recrowned them. They sure aren't top grade barrels nor commercial rifles either.

Pat I find it amazing, especially one who shoots benchrest, saying he doesn't shoot that many 1/2 inch groups.