You guys were right about the 6.5x55...

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

I've for some time wondered how well the soft cast bullets we are now shooting this fast hold their shape due to set back. In measuring the BCs up through 2600+ fps with 311466 the BC gets lower as the velocity increases. This is natural but the results I've gotten seem to be a larger drop than expected. It could be because of set back with the nose flattening out(?). That's just a thought though as i've not really pondered it that much. If your bullet is holding form then it should still shoot well to 300 yards. I've shot many a FP cast bulleet farther than that with very good accuracy until they start dropping subsonic. There are some exceptions though. We won't know until you try it. Id like to see you try it at 200 yards at the same shooting session. If it holds at 200 but not at 300 then you could shoot at 225, 250 and 275 to see where it "loses it, if it does.

BTW; 300 yards is a "medium" range to me.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I don't consider 300 yards real long distance. If the dang fellow hadn't sold the next big long field adjacent to mine I may have been able to shoot 500 yards or over.

Remember the 19 years, or so, kid that was on the forum that shot long distance...believe it was about 600 yards with a 25-06 at milk jugs full of water? He was pretty good at it. Wonder what happen to him.

Once when I lived out in the sticks in OK there was a river down the road from me that wound through nowhere. Folks use to shoot and fish there. Well when standing along the river (atop a bank actually) and looking to my right I was looking inline with the direction of the river. It went straight quite a ways. Never had an actual measurement, but we're talking 1/4-1/2 mile. Had the Brazilian 7x57 with the Lymand 150 Loverin 287405 and shooting it around 1800-1900 fps. I aimed just about level being I was atop the bank or hill overtop that river straight away. When I fired I watched for the splash. My God!!! I saw it and it was awful awful far down that river. I was impressed. My best friend and I were going to have a shooting contest, his Model 700 Remington in 30-06 using jacketed 168 grain Sierra Match Kings and me using my 30-40 krag using the 311284 cast loaded to about 1900-2000 fps at the John Zink shooting range on the 1000 yard course. The bet was I couldn't hit a refrigerator shipping cardboard box. I was allowed some sighters..I mean after all how the hell would I know where to set the ladder sight being that wasn't the bullet or load designed for the sights or visa versa. He said okay. Well another little smarty Army brat that worked with us at the refinery kept telling him that I was going to walk away with his Model 700 in my possession so Mike wouldn't do and we never did get around to shooting that far to see what our rifles would do. The clinch was when Doug, the Army brat, told him I was shooting a 220 grin bullet at just about the velocity that rifle was set up for. That stopped Mike. Mike and I shot a lot together. That bugger can shoot a rifle off hand very well too.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist.

This is exactly what "amazes" me as I posted. Just what exactly is it that you think "forgives" those defects? It is the lessor RPM of the slower twist. That's pretty plain to see isn't it?

Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one?

No it won't Joe given equal velocities and equal stability. However given equal velocity the slower twist will give equal accuracy at a higher velocity. I have proved that over and over again with the extensive testing of the .308W in 10, 12 and 14" twist rifles. I get the same accuracy at 2500+ fps in the 14" twist that i get at 2200 fps in the 12" twist and at 1900 fps in the 10" twist. Do the mathc joe, the RPM is close to the same for all of them.

Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease.

There you go again, off on tangents about J bullets and cars Did you ever consider, in your anolgy, that some J bullets are impossible to shoot at HV because the blow up from to many RPMs? I thought not.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV.

There in lies the reason we don't discuss loads such as your 45-70 and handgun loads. They do not exceed the RPM threshold, most do not even enter the RPM threshold range. There fore they should shoot well, all other things being done correctly for a cast bullet load. BTW; In my Siamese Mauser 45-70 (it has one of them "crappy" E.R. Shaw barrels on it) I have shot the Lyman 457483 (GC'd 390 gr fully dressed) at 2300 fps without pressure problems. The RPM of that load was not quite 80,000. Thus even with a slightly faster twist your Marlin load still had less RPM. I have to tell on myself here....There was some adverse "pressure" ....it was to the shoulder as you mention. As a matter of fact it was down right fierce off the bench

Larry Gibson

[carpetman]

Starmetal--Joe that 19 year old kid you mentioned was 25-06 man or something like that. He was plannning on joining the USMC and wanted to be a sniper. I dont know if he could meet their weight standard--he was very tall and skinny. His family was moving from I think Oregon to Idaho. I sent him some .243 bullets about the time he was moving and never heard from him or saw him post again.
Larry you cant talk accuracy to Starmetal Joe. He doesnt understand inaccuracy. He has never experienced it. Never shot anything but a one hole group. Like trying to explain color to a person that has always been blind.

[onceabull]

Hopefully this thread will stay open long enough for "tiger" to write in and give us the "truth"(pride of Austria version) Onceabull

[StarMetal]

Starmetal--Joe that 19 year old kid you mentioned was 25-06 man or something like that. He was plannning on joining the USMC and wanted to be a sniper. I dont know if he could meet their weight standard--he was very tall and skinny. His family was moving from I think Oregon to Idaho. I sent him some .243 bullets about the time he was moving and never heard from him or saw him post again.
Larry you cant talk accuracy to Starmetal Joe. He doesnt understand inaccuracy. He has never experienced it. Never shot anything but a one hole group. Like trying to explain color to a person that has always been blind.

That's the fellow Ray. I didn't know he planned on joining the Marines.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist.

This is exactly what "amazes" me as I posted. Just what exactly is it that you think "forgives" those defects? It is the lessor RPM of the slower twist. That's pretty plain to see isn't it?

Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one?

No it won't Joe given equal velocities and equal stability. However given equal velocity the slower twist will give equal accuracy at a higher velocity. I have proved that over and over again with the extensive testing of the .308W in 10, 12 and 14" twist rifles. I get the same accuracy at 2500+ fps in the 14" twist that i get at 2200 fps in the 12" twist and at 1900 fps in the 10" twist. Do the mathc joe, the RPM is close to the same for all of them.

Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease.

There you go again, off on tangents about J bullets and cars Did you ever consider, in your anolgy, that some J bullets are impossible to shoot at HV because the blow up from to many RPMs? I thought not.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV.

There in lies the reason we don't discuss loads such as your 45-70 and handgun loads. They do not exceed the RPM threshold, most do not even enter the RPM threshold range. There fore they should shoot well, all other things being done correctly for a cast bullet load. BTW; In my Siamese Mauser 45-70 (it has one of them "crappy" E.R. Shaw barrels on it) I have shot the Lyman 457483 (GC'd 390 gr fully dressed) at 2300 fps without pressure problems. The RPM of that load was not quite 80,000. Thus even with a slightly faster twist your Marlin load still had less RPM. I have to tell on myself here....There was some adverse "pressure" ....it was to the shoulder as you mention. As a matter of fact it was down right fierce off the bench

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I'm not talking about driving jacketed bullets to the velocity that they blowup. I'm just stating that some of them shoot better at the highest velocity you can safely shoot the bullet. But that's another story for another topic.

Joe

[Ricochet]

Wikipedia's actually pretty good on most things. If you see something wrong, fix it yourself.

[Bret4207]

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category. Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

Joe

Well, that was possibility #2 of 3. #1 possibility bring us back to to the question of what you are using.

Signed, Still Thinking in Macomb....

[Larry Gibson]

All

Is there some way we can bring this thread back to the topic, i.e. loading for the 6.5 Swede?

Larry Gibson

[O.S.O.K.]

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I got to thinking, yeah bad thing for me, possibly for you. I want to know what my test of firing groups with a 6.5 bullet isn't valid in your eyes, to prove accuracy with a fast twist and high velocity, because it wasn't a Swede....when you done major rpm threshold testing using three different rifles and barrels? Further more you really knocked my test rifle as being custom and having a high dollar high custom barrel when your three rifles had very similar components? Here's the rifle description paragraph from that post:
All three rifles are chambered in .308 Winchester. All three are accurate with jacketed bullets and cast bullets. All three have free floated barrels. The three rifles have three different twists. The three test rifles used are; the 10” twist rifle is a M1909 Argentine Mauser with a 24” heavy sporter barrel. It has a Timny trigger set at 2 lbs. It has a 10X Weaver MicroTrac scope on it. This rifle is capable of consistent MOA accuracy with quality bullets. The 12” twist rifle is a M70 varmint rifle with heavy 26” barrel. The trigger is also set at 2 lbs. It has a 3x12 Redfield Ultimate scope on it. This M70 is capable of ½ MOA with match bullets. The 14” twist rifle is a M98 Mauser with a 27.5 barrel of Palma taper and weight. It too has a 2 lb trigger. This rifle has a 16X Weaver T16 on top. It is also capable of ½ MOA with match bullets.

I feel I got a bad rap from you on my 6.5 tests. Like I said before a 6.5 bullet doesn't know what barrel it's fired from. Had I done a rpm threshold test of 6.5 caliber and used the 6.5x54MS rifle of mine, had one of those classic Remington 6.5 Swede for the 2nd rifle, and say my 260 Rem for third...would they not have been as valid test being all three have different twist and weren't the 96 Swede?

I still feel you made excuses which I said you would make before your replied to the targets I posted.

Joe

[tejano]

OMG! No more please. In fact, strike this post too.

[StarMetal]

OMG! No more please. In fact, strike this post too.

No more baloney. Larry makes up rules to suit him as he goes along. The one and only thing I will admit to is that I was off topic to the original poster's question. The fact remains I did make a 6.5 caliber rifle of fast twist shoot accurately. No I'm not boasting...many said it can't be done or can't be done consistently....I proved it can. In fact I done it with 3 6.5 caliber rifles. Know what the 260 has the slowest twist of them and shoots the worse! I'll give it due because it's on a 6.5 Jap action with the original trigger worked a little and doesn't have the Mercedes Benz barrel.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Chirp, chirp...(sound of crickets chirping).........




I'm whispering- Joe, let it go.......

[StarMetal]

Was looking at this Swede for sale:



Nice stock, but doesn't the metal look dull? Like something has been done to it? The fellow isn't asking a crazy price for it. What do you fellows think?

Joe

[Bret4207]

Looks like it's been bead blasted and the stock looks refinished.

[O.S.O.K.]

Looks parkerized. I'd pass....

[StarMetal]

Yeah, that's what I though, plus he had a video shooting and let me tell you, he shoots the devil out of it. I think I will pass on it.

Joe

[PAT303]

I'm not taking sides but I was able to assemble loads for two m96's,one with the original mil barrel the other with an aftermarket 1-9 twist one,the difference in loads between the two was such that I may as well have had two different calibres.The 1-9 was on the money straight up shooting around the inch at 100 with around 15-20grns of 2205(4227) or 15-18grns of 2400 were's the mil barrel didn't want a bar of it.I found even with jacketed boolits neither rifle liked the same boolit-powder combination so I feel that talking about any 6.5 rifle other than an m38-96 which is what the thread was about really needs a new thread.I'm finding that on many open Forums,I'm a member of a few that there is a growing number of times that ego's get in the way of the real reason for having the forum which is helping all the members gain information for the greater good of all. Pat

[runfiverun]

pat this and twist rate is an ongoing open.opinionated,type of thread it goes it comes.
sometimes the posts run into the hundreds,the original thread was about the 6.5 swede rifle.
however threads are kinda allowed to wander and meander here.
there is a lot of information passed along [sometimes it even relates to the subject]
there are a couple of guys that haven't rang in yet [kinda surprised] but as ong as the mud slinging don't start it'll go on...
this is the biggie in cast shooting right here....accuracy at or above j-word velocities without paper involved or a false jacket.
possible yes,done by everybody nope,why? cause it ain't easy and the combination takes some time to find.
then what do ya do with it? makes holes in paper....cause you can't really hunt with it [sept varmints],and rocks don't care how fast that chunk of lead bounces off it.
so that leaves accuracy only and that does have some real uses...