You guys were right about the 6.5x55...

[StarMetal]

After ANOTHER 11 pages with no straight answer you must be mighty thirsty.

It's all right there in the 11 pages Pat....the alloy, the lube, the technique....send me a plane ticket and I'll fly out and load the damn things for you...geesh, what else do you want. Bret, I think, had gotten it. Apparently you haven't. He's at least thinking.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

I am just absolutely amazed by what some of you write. I’m reading that from most of you that it is, in fact, “easier” to load for accuracy with slower twist barrels. This is even at moderate velocities of 1800 -2000 fps and the higher velocities up through 2400+ fps. It is “easier’ to get best accuracy at 1800-1900 fps from a 10” twist than a 7.5” twist. The 7.5” twist gives best accuracy down in the 1400-1500 fps range. It is “easier” to get the same accuracy at 200 fps with a 12’ twist that you get at 1900 fps with the 10” twist. With 14’ twist it is just as “easy” to get the same accuracy at 2400-2500 fps that you get at 2200 fps with a 12” twist and at 1900 fps with a 10” twist and at 1500 fps with a 7.5” twist. If we do the simple math we find the RPM at each of these “easiest” velocities is pretty much the same. Then the same who say "it's easier with slower twists" then want to say RPM has nothing to do with it. Talk about contradictions.

Now before starmetal, 45 2.1 and others go off again note I am referring to normal cast bullet loads with regular type cast bullets for rifles. If any of them would bother to look at a listing of past and current rifle cast bullets they will notice that the long nose bore riders are the “norm”. Also note that I have said “normal cast bullet loading techniques”. This obviously excludes the specialized methods I and others use who have the inclination and equipment to use them. Most cast bullet shooters have neither the inclination to use those advanced techniques or they really don’t care for HV cast bullet loads. Most all regular cast bullet shooters also lack the extensive equipment that I , starmetal, 45 2.1 and others have. And they are not inclined to purchase that equipment/tools.

The obvious conclusion for the majority of cast bullet shooters is that RPM is the key component to accuracy here. To get best accuracy, given normal and adequate cast bullet loading techniques, simply keep the RPM below a certain level. We can do this two ways; controlling the velocity in a barrel with which we have or by using a barrel with a slower twist if higher velocity is desired or required. Go above that RPM level and almost every cast bullet shooter loses accuracy with such loads. That is a threshold. It can be pushed higher by a few of us with the equipment/tools and inclination to do so. A couple also have some “magical” and “dangerous” methods they use to push the RPM threshold higher. However, the majority of cast bullet shooters will continue to find, with regular cast bullet loads, the RPM threshold to be real and above which accuracy will deteriorate.

The majority of cast bullet shooters are either already aware of this, even though they may not understand it. The others should be made aware of it as it will help them better enjoy our sport and avoid needless frustration. If any of them desire to accumulate the required equipment/tools and want to learn how to push the RPM threshold for accuracy at HV then that information should be readily available without all this “I’m the master and you’re the student or it’s “dangerous” so I won’t tell you ridiculousness.

RPM is indeed the factor a cast bullet shooter must over come if accuracy at HV with a given twist (generally 10” of faster) is desired. The facts are plain to see.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

I denote several inferences to the use of “duplex” loads here. Is that what you are using? You only gave one powder in the load listed for your MS. I know you brought that subject up several years ago and were severely chastised by many even though several of us were interested in what you had to say. The subject was killed before we got any real information. It is too bad the bantering, name calling, curtsy little quips and in general nay-saying many times get a thread locked before those of us who are truly interested get any meaning out of it. If those who get pissed off about certain topics just wouldn’t read them or those who are against it would just say so and leave it be then sometimes those who are interested in such esoteric topics could have a meaningful discussion about it.

Hopefully you will answer my question (“are you using a duplex load in the MS or any of your HC cast bullet loads?). A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice and I’ll let it go at that.

Larry Gibson.

[Pat I.]

send me a plane ticket and I'll fly out and load the damn things for you...geesh, what else do you want.

I imagine the same thing everyone else wants, the facts. Puzzles aren't my strong point. You could have shown me "The Technique" when I offered to drive down and see your 8 twist 6.5 Grendel shoot 5/8 inch groups at 2400 fps but you never got back to me on that.

[Char-Gar]

"All he found out was that fast twist 6.5 mms do shoot at high velocity. Something you and the CBA haven't got them to do yet. After all the crap that has been naysayed about high velocity 6.5s, its kind of refreshing to see all the gasps going on. "


Bobby.. Any gasping going on has nothing to do with the loads used and/or not used nor the sucess or non-sucess of cast bullets in a fast twist 6.5. Such gasping, if any, is related to the opaqueness of this whole thread.

[45 2.1]

I must have missed that gasping part. Yes, your probably correct, you do seem to miss a lot.

Now a riddle for you. What's the same about someone posting this picture and someone posting pictures of targets on the internet?......................................... .................................. Answer: Until they're witnessed neither one mean squat. Some people don't need to hit by a train to know it would kill them when they step in front of it. Perhaps some people need direct evidence though.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

I denote several inferences to the use of “duplex” loads here. Is that what you are using? You only gave one powder in the load listed for your MS. I know you brought that subject up several years ago and were severely chastised by many even though several of us were interested in what you had to say. The subject was killed before we got any real information. It is too bad the bantering, name calling, curtsy little quips and in general nay-saying many times get a thread locked before those of us who are truly interested get any meaning out of it. If those who get pissed off about certain topics just wouldn’t read them or those who are against it would just say so and leave it be then sometimes those who are interested in such esoteric topics could have a meaningful discussion about it.

Hopefully you will answer my question (“are you using a duplex load in the MS or any of your HC cast bullet loads?). A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice and I’ll let it go at that.

Larry Gibson.

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category. Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

Joe

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=Chargar;661016 Bobby.. Any gasping going on has nothing to do with the loads used and/or not used nor the sucess or non-sucess of cast bullets in a fast twist 6.5. Such gasping, if any, is related to the opaqueness of this whole thread.[/QUOTE]

Charles, not that you have added anything here but chargin, but i'm somewhat like you, I call them like I see them. Besides, aren't you the one who said he doesn't have any use for high velocity? Opaqueness has no part in this thread. A long standing belief, by many of the fold, that it is impossible (many inferences like that in numerous past posts) to get high velocity and accuracy at the same time from a fast twist 6.5mm was evident until this illuminating thread showed it is possible. Just look at the future possibilities..................................... ........

[Larry Gibson]

I must have missed that gasping part. Yes, your probably correct, you do seem to miss a lot.

Now a riddle for you. What's the same about someone posting this picture and someone posting pictures of targets on the internet?......................................... .................................. Answer: Until they're witnessed neither one mean squat. Some people don't need to hit by a train to know it would kill them when they step in front of it. Perhaps some people need direct evidence though.

My, oh my, are we ever really questioning everyone's veracity! Especially starmetals! I guess we can all start shooting at 50 yards or less and them post them and claim 100 or even 200 yards! Now wouldn't that be meaningful.

I for one give everyone the benifit of the doubt about their claims. If I call BS then i ask for proof. starmetal took some pictures and posted soem groups. I am taking them for face value because i know Joe and have had many phone conversations with him. I will probably get to his place this next year (hoping to be fully retired by then) and do expect him to show me. Until then I'll take his word for it.

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

45 2.1, Don't see the relationship but interesting concept.

Larry you're right. If someone doesn't mind contending with and dancing for this secret nonsense I suppose they're entitled to it. I'm just not cut from that cloth or even know how to deal with it so I'll bow out. I don't know Starmetal but have been reading about his one ragged hole groups for years which automatically raises my warning indicator.

[StarMetal]

I imagine the same thing everyone else wants, the facts. Puzzles aren't my strong point. You could have shown me "The Technique" when I offered to drive down and see your 8 twist 6.5 Grendel shoot 5/8 inch groups at 2400 fps but you never got back to me on that.

Yup, you're right, I never got back to you on that drive down and see me invite because frankly I don't like company. My wife and I like our solitude. Probably the reason we have a pretty much isolated farm in the mountains of TN. Also I don't care if you don't believe the 6.5 Grendel shoots or not. I'm the only person I have to satisfy on that and satisfy myself I have indeed. They also shoot very small holes with jacketed....not just mine, but most all the fellows on the 6.5 forum that own them. It's really a nice little round.

Joe

[StarMetal]

My, oh my, are we ever really questioning everyone's veracity! Especially starmetals! I guess we can all start shooting at 50 yards or less and them post them and claim 100 or even 200 yards! Now wouldn't that be meaningful.

I for one give everyone the benifit of the doubt about their claims. If I call BS then i ask for proof. starmetal took some pictures and posted soem groups. I am taking them for face value because i know Joe and have had many phone conversations with him. I will probably get to his place this next year (hoping to be fully retired by then) and do expect him to show me. Until then I'll take his word for it.

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I want to take my 6.5 Grendel back to the 300 yard mark again and see if it holds the group I shot that one (notice I said one) time. I forget what it was now. I've let the Grendel set in the safe too long, need to get it out.

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

Joe

[45 2.1]

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real Larry Gibson

Nahh.....i'm just a figment of your imagination setting on your shoulder saying "you can't do it". You have a good day now buddy.

[Char-Gar]

Bobby... You are correct that I have added nothing to this conversation but chagrin. Guilty as charged. I guess I just need to ignore the whole mess, as I can't really say everything I think for I would be banned as Starmetal once was.

I know you and Joe to be basicaly good guys, but lordy you two can engage in some infantile behaviour and not be aware of it. Of course it is not my place to point it out as you are not my children. If you were, we would go to the barn for a talk out of the earshot of the women folks. Later we would have a good still drink or too toget the laughter going again and make up.

I remember when you and Old Feller were at each other. He could bait you and you would take bait every time. I see something of the same dynamic going on with this topic. I just don't think you guys can help yourselves. Over my life I have known many folks who held the belief that knowledge is power over others, and to let go of any knoweldge is to lose power. They have a deep seated psychological need for that power, so they won't let it go, but they will certainly let others know they have it.

I don't believe this has anything to do with danger or any things else, but a couple of guys who may or may not have some important information and won't share it because to do so would lose their source of power over others.

I truly wish both of you well and sucess in your quest. There is no charge for this counseling session. I hold no animas for either to you. I just wish you would share what you know or quit talking about what you know, but won't share, because we are not knowledable enough or prudent enough to handle it. Most of us know better than to crimp blasting caps onto the fuse with our teeth anymore. We are not reckless fools. We know out way around a can of gunpower and a pot of hot lead. But that is not really the issue...now is it?

[StarMetal]

I am just absolutely amazed by what some of you write. I’m reading that from most of you that it is, in fact, “easier” to load for accuracy with slower twist barrels. This is even at moderate velocities of 1800 -2000 fps and the higher velocities up through 2400+ fps. It is “easier’ to get best accuracy at 1800-1900 fps from a 10” twist than a 7.5” twist. The 7.5” twist gives best accuracy down in the 1400-1500 fps range. It is “easier” to get the same accuracy at 200 fps with a 12’ twist that you get at 1900 fps with the 10” twist. With 14’ twist it is just as “easy” to get the same accuracy at 2400-2500 fps that you get at 2200 fps with a 12” twist and at 1900 fps with a 10” twist and at 1500 fps with a 7.5” twist. If we do the simple math we find the RPM at each of these “easiest” velocities is pretty much the same. Then the same who say "it's easier with slower twists" then want to say RPM has nothing to do with it. Talk about contradictions.

Now before starmetal, 45 2.1 and others go off again note I am referring to normal cast bullet loads with regular type cast bullets for rifles. If any of them would bother to look at a listing of past and current rifle cast bullets they will notice that the long nose bore riders are the “norm”. Also note that I have said “normal cast bullet loading techniques”. This obviously excludes the specialized methods I and others use who have the inclination and equipment to use them. Most cast bullet shooters have neither the inclination to use those advanced techniques or they really don’t care for HV cast bullet loads. Most all regular cast bullet shooters also lack the extensive equipment that I , starmetal, 45 2.1 and others have. And they are not inclined to purchase that equipment/tools.

The obvious conclusion for the majority of cast bullet shooters is that RPM is the key component to accuracy here. To get best accuracy, given normal and adequate cast bullet loading techniques, simply keep the RPM below a certain level. We can do this two ways; controlling the velocity in a barrel with which we have or by using a barrel with a slower twist if higher velocity is desired or required. Go above that RPM level and almost every cast bullet shooter loses accuracy with such loads. That is a threshold. It can be pushed higher by a few of us with the equipment/tools and inclination to do so. A couple also have some “magical” and “dangerous” methods they use to push the RPM threshold higher. However, the majority of cast bullet shooters will continue to find, with regular cast bullet loads, the RPM threshold to be real and above which accuracy will deteriorate.

The majority of cast bullet shooters are either already aware of this, even though they may not understand it. The others should be made aware of it as it will help them better enjoy our sport and avoid needless frustration. If any of them desire to accumulate the required equipment/tools and want to learn how to push the RPM threshold for accuracy at HV then that information should be readily available without all this “I’m the master and you’re the student or it’s “dangerous” so I won’t tell you ridiculousness.

RPM is indeed the factor a cast bullet shooter must over come if accuracy at HV with a given twist (generally 10” of faster) is desired. The facts are plain to see.


Larry Gibson

Larry,

Well stated. Let me say a few things. I see you are right with me on what you call moderate loads from 1800 fps up some. I call them medium power loads, same thing, just different name. We agree on that.

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist. Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one? Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease. Heck even shooting a jacketed bullet to the limit to get accuracy is hard in the sense of hard on your shoulder, hard on the rifle, hard on your ears. I believe most people like to squeeze the trigger on a rifle that they know isn't going to belt them into the next county rather then on one that does.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV. What would my 30 Luger bullet do and rifle HV....hmmmm...will have to load some in the 30-06 and see maybe.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Bobby... You are correct that I have added nothing to this conversation but chagrin. Guilty as charged. I guess I just need to ignore the whole mess, as I can't really say everything I think for I would be banned as Starmetal once was.

I know you and Joe to be basicaly good guys, but lordy you two can engage in some infantile behaviour and not be aware of it. Of course it is not my place to point it out as you are not my children. If you were, we would go to the barn for a talk out of the earshot of the women folks. Later we would have a good still drink or too toget the laughter going again and make up.

I remember when you and Old Feller were at each other. He could bait you and you would take bait every time. I see something of the same dynamic going on with this topic. I just don't think you guys can help yourselves. Over my life I have known many folks who held the belief that knowledge is power over others, and to let go of any knoweldge is to lose power. They have a deep seated psychological need for that power, so they won't let it go, but they will certainly let others know they have it.

I don't believe this has anything to do with danger or any things else, but a couple of guys who may or may not have some important information and won't share it because to do so would lose their source of power over others.

I truly wish both of you well and sucess in your quest. There is no charge for this counseling session. I hold no animas for either to you. I just wish you would share what you know or quit talking about what you know, but won't share, because we are not knowledable enough or prudent enough to handle it. Most of us know better than to crimp blasting caps onto the fuse with our teeth anymore. We are not reckless fools. We know out way around a can of gunpower and a pot of hot lead. But that is not really the issue...now is it?

Charger,

Good post. Let's talk about that danger. I doubted Bob when he told me of it. About two weeks ago my 28 grain load of 4895 went to 33 grains on purpose. As mentioned somewhere in this long thread I shot them and they had very very hard bolt handle lift. Primers were pretty flat. Not the molten in lead look, but never the less flat with a little bit of primer puckering around the firing pin indention. I goes "Whoa!!!" Put them over the chrono too. For the devil of me I forget the velocity, but they were past the limit for jacketed in the 6.5MS. Larry pay attention here. They were over 2500 fps. So let's just take that 2500 even and figure the rpm. It's 225,000 rpm. They went into an inch!! Back to you charger....with the wrong powder the specialized loading can be very very hot, which equates to dangerous. So take a novice cast shooter and "let's see, size the case, mmhmmm, next primer, okay, my measured powder, unhuh, this, that, some of this, cap her up with my bullet, there I go".....EXPLOSION!!!!! Aw hell, look at my rifle "Honey, I'm bleeding, don't get upset". So you might ask how dangerous is it if you do it right? Well, that can be dangerous too...look at all the folks I kind of p o'ed shooting those HV group....some would probably like to kick my hind end. Not dangerous at all the right way charger. Not hard to load either. Just hard finding the right sweet spot.

Aw shucks, y'all read this long post and dang Joe still hasn't told us a darn thing. Sorry, I'm not going to tell you anything except 6.5's with fast twist can shoot small groups at HV. I've done that. I believe the 6.5 is particularly hard to do that with because the bullets are long, skinny, and fragile compared to big old 30 caliber bullet.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category.

Thanks for the quick answer. I thought you had not due to our previous private conversations but with the inferences made i wanted to be sure.

Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

I concur 100%.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category.

Thanks for the quick answer. I thought you had not due to our previous private conversations but with the inferences made i wanted to be sure.

Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

I concur 100%.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Just loaded up some rounds for the 260 Rem. First off the group buy is way too long for that rifle. That's even after I throated the throat out longer so I could chamber rounds with 140 grain jacketed bullets. Now the 266455 and 266469 fit it p e r f e c t. Raining here so when it stops I'll be testing it. Trying a slightly modified load of the same 29 grain 4895 that went into the 6.5MS.

By the way even with encouragement from some friends I wouldn't load a booster duplex load with my 5010 powder.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

I've for some time wondered how well the soft cast bullets we are now shooting this fast hold their shape due to set back. In measuring the BCs up through 2600+ fps with 311466 the BC gets lower as the velocity increases. This is natural but the results I've gotten seem to be a larger drop than expected. It could be because of set back with the nose flattening out(?). That's just a thought though as i've not really pondered it that much. If your bullet is holding form then it should still shoot well to 300 yards. I've shot many a FP cast bulleet farther than that with very good accuracy until they start dropping subsonic. There are some exceptions though. We won't know until you try it. Id like to see you try it at 200 yards at the same shooting session. If it holds at 200 but not at 300 then you could shoot at 225, 250 and 275 to see where it "loses it, if it does.

BTW; 300 yards is a "medium" range to me.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Nahh.....i'm just a figment of your imagination setting on your shoulder saying "you can't do it". You have a good day now buddy.

Well just maybe I'll show up back there one of these days and you can climb down off my shoulder and show me how it's done

Larry Gibson