Why not make your own jackets?

[barryjyoung]

Hello:

I am rather new here. I don't see any posts on making jackets. Why?

I understand that the equipment is expensive if you have to buy it, but looking over the videos from Dave Corbins site points out that the process really doesn't look terribly complex. The dies do not appear to be anywhere near as critical as point forming dies. True, there are many dies involved, but they look really simple to make.

Enlighten me someone before I waste a bunch of time learning that making jackets is really hard to do.

Has anybody on here ever made jackets?


Thank you

Barry

[Storydude]

I made 100 last night from .22LR brass.

Larger jackets get harder to make.

[sqlbullet]

I am newish as well, but you need to look through the swaging forum. Lots of guys are making jackets, many of them from spent brass. Freakshow10mm makes .400 slugs using 9mm cases, and BT Sniper makes all kinds of interesting stuff.

Spent brass seems to me like the way to go. I am all about projectiles that don't cost me anything but time.

[barryjyoung]

Storydude: What makes them hard to make? .22 cases will make .22 and .s43 jackets only if I read the info here correctly. I need 30, .357 and .45 cal. Thanks for answering

sqlbullet: making jackets from spent cases looks to be very time consuming. I want to make them from copper strip or perhaps copper tubing. Thanks for answering.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I am wanting the ability to make jacketed bullets that shoot at least as well as factory. I want this ability in case supplies dry up even more.

[BT Sniper]

Barry,

Check the .357 from .223 thread for your .357 jackets.
A good jacket for a 45 should be able to come from a sized down 45 case but then you are shooting the same jacket you are firing the bullet from ultimately reducing your supply.
30 caliber jackets would need some reducing dies for jackets from 30 carbine or .223. Again the only thing I have mastered is jackets for .429 but I'm positive the same technique will work with other calibers.
Check the "45lc 45acp and 45-70 bullets from acp case" thread on page 3. Notice the acp cases with the base milled off. Imagine the base milled off of 40 S&W, 9mm, .223, 30 carbine and the many other cases used for jackets and it would make a very good looking bullet.
I am interested in making some riffle bullets as well, check out some of the work done with copper tubing.
Accuracy from my 44 pistol and brass jacketed bullets has been able to match and top factory.
Keep at it, eventualy you will come up with somthing that will work. It is alot of trile and error for me with many times of fustration but when it suddenly all comes togther it is a lot of fun.

Good shooting,

BT

[sqlbullet]

Check out corbin's website or his brother's site, RCE. They have lots of stuff for forming jackets from tubing. You can use tubing from them, or stuff from the hardware store.

BT Sniper talks about removing the crimp groove in his 45/70 bullets, but for lots of applications is is very easy to use spent casings. When using tubing or strips you have to form the cup, which takes several steps. Many of the threads about using spend casing don't utilize any dies beyond the basic swaging and nose forming dies.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=50635

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46953

I am not pushing used brass as jackets, but wanted ensure you had a clear picture of what is being done.

[BT Sniper]

Sql,

Thanks for the compliment.

Kawalekm does some nice work (links you provided) and has beat me to perfecting almost everything I thought about trying. It was his posted work on the 429x40S&W bullet that got me into all of this.

Good shooting

[sqlbullet]

You got it BT...I just sit back and envy those of you that make time to do this. Between a full time job and six kids between the ages of 13 and 2, I barely have time to cast.

[BT Sniper]

I'm a stay home dad of twin 2 year olds myself. Wife works full time and no nearby family to help out. Has to be hardest job I have ever had. Sometimes sitting down to cast some lead is just the stress relief I need.

[bohica2xo]

Make your own jackets? sure why not.

I know you guys have spindle time to burn, but I can't justify machining a case when I have a punch press - machine tools are for making production tools.

Spanking the extractor groove off is no big deal. Bumping up (40 S&W case to .452 bullet) can be done, but for the average reloading press it is easier to draw down (40 S&W case to .410 bullet), since there is no punch stripper on a Rock Chucker. Shearing the rim off of a 38 Special is even easier (.375 bullets).

A quick expander pass on FN 5.7 cases, then a draw down makes an ok .308 jacket. All easily done in a loading press.

But if you really want jackets that "shoot at least as well as factory", then you must take the same steps as Berger does with a J4.

Childs play really.
Dust off that transfer press, and toss a decent sized 4 poster on the bench.
Calculate the clamping force for the cupping die, the punch clearances & radii for the copper strip you plan to use. Calculate the steps for the next three or four drawing stations, and the final trim die.
Machine 3 or 4 complete sets of punches & dies from D2, and send them to the heat treater. Once you get them back, run them through the ID/OD grinder to finished size.

Of course if you are drawing really long jackets (or making cases) you will need to put an anneal step in the process someplace, then feed annealed parts into the remaining die stages to get where you want to go.

High quality jackets are amazingly precise. Wall thicknesses are very close tolerance. Lengths are carefully controlled. Weigh & measure a batch of J4's sometime.

If you really want a challenge, start making the dies to swage solid copper bullets. I spent months making the stuff below .308 work right.

Does that school you work in have a punch press? An old die set you can use? With enough press you can make some nice brass jackets...

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

Barry, 22 RF can indeed make .224 & .243 Jackets, the main issue is that 22 RF jackets are somewhat thinner than conventional jackets, therefore the issue is the toughness of the thicker copper is better...

Making jackets from tubing, or anything else is going to be time consuming, i.e. what you save in purchasing bullets from any manufacturer, you're going to payback in your personal time.

Take Care,

Jim

Storydude: What makes them hard to make? .22 cases will make .22 and .s43 jackets only if I read the info here correctly. I need 30, .357 and .45 cal. Thanks for answering

[barryjyoung]

BT Sniper: I have looked at modifying cases to make jackets from. I was looking more for a way to make them from raw materials. I would have to buy the brass to make the cases from anyway. Mostly it is just for fascination with the process. I am much more intrigued by the idea of making jackets from tubing. Looking into that and copper strip very closely. Thanks for your post.

sqlbullet: I expect that I will probably make my own dies for jacket reduction and tubing modification. The information on the Corbin website is very good. Wow! 6 kids? You DO have your hands full. I have a very clear picture of what is happening. Thanks to the people who post here.

bohica2xo: Machining a case? I also cannot justify machining cases even though I do not have a punch press.. I wish I had a punch press. Have you ever seen plans for a proper punch press? The cheapest used ones I have seen are way out of my financial range. At this point this means making or modifying a hydraulic (SLOW) press similar to and usable as an arbor press. I agree, I want to make jackets just like Berger does. Just like on the Corbin video that I have. I agree, it is not rocket science. The reduction dies are simplicity itself. I will make those. The blanking die is fairly simple (harder because I have never made one, I am a toolmaker, not a diemaker). The cupping die seems to be the most difficult. So I will probably buy my first set from Dave Corbin then go from there on my own. My machinery at home is limited and I am too busy at work doing my job making machinists to do any of this. What is a transfer press? I assume a “four poster” is a die set? I have a heat treat furnace at home. I do my own heat treat. Grinding is doable. Have to finish my toolpost grinder. No, the school does not have a punch press. I do not have formulas for calculating cupping die forces or die clearance. I am sure making dies for solid bullets would require extremely stout stock to begin with as enormous pressures must be involved. I wish I had spent at least some time in a punch press environment. We tend to make airplanes in this area and so most of my career has been spent making fixtures and airframe components. Thanks for your great response.

[barryjyoung]

Jim Fleming: I agree, this is going to be time consuming. I am not interested in doing it to save money. Although many people get into handloading, bullet casting and swaging to save money, that has never been one of my motivations. I am in this game for the wonder of it. I am fascinated with the process and want to be able to do as much of it here at home as I can. I shoot so little that it would be FAR less expensive to simply buy ammunition. My interests in handloading and bulletmaking are way out of proportion to the amount I shoot. My handloading needs would be easily met by my Rockchucker press, yet I am so intrigued with the process that I have installed three progressives and a turret press on my bench. It is a hobby rather than a way to save money. Thanks for the response, you made me think about why I do this.

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

I worked for Lockheed Aircraft for 10 years after I finished my apprenticeship. They certainly had plenty of punch presses. Blanking, notching & some forming was done in table setups regularly.

Old punch presses are not expensive around here. I bought a little 15ton unit for 200 bucks a couple of years ago. Anything that does not have current OSHA controls is hard to sell commercially without a retrofit.

Yes, a 4 poster is a 4 post die set. A transfer press is a large crankshaft driven press with an arrangement to "transfer" individual workpieces from die station to die station. A progressive die feeds strip in one end, and once the blanks are cupped the parts move down the line of dies. The strip scrap is chopped with a shear in the die & falls out. The finished jackets fall out the other end.

The blanking dies are as simple as it gets. You just need to keep the clearance tight enough to get a clean cut on thin copper. Were it not for the diameter, you could blank in a loading press.

The cupping die depends on a certain ammount of pressure holding the flat blank beyond the diameter of the punch. That pressure is calculated from the punch diameter & nose radius, the die mouth radius, & material thickness / yield strength. Refer to Machinery's Handbook for some formulae.

Solid copper swaging is not for the faint of heart. Tons of force on a .224 punch can be exciting...

If you have the shop space, a small screw machine is a hoot. I have seen older Tornos units bring scrap prices lately. A 10 foot bar, and you can be making bullets in a couple of hours. I shot many "feet" of 12L14 bullets from my M60...

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

And Thank You, Barry, for such an eloquent, polite, and deeply passionate reply...

'Nuff of the touchy, feely stuff now...

Take Care,

Jim

Jim Fleming: I agree, this is going to be time consuming. I am not interested in doing it to save money. Although many people get into handloading, bullet casting and swaging to save money, that has never been one of my motivations. I am in this game for the wonder of it. I am fascinated with the process and want to be able to do as much of it here at home as I can. I shoot so little that it would be FAR less expensive to simply buy ammunition. My interests in handloading and bulletmaking are way out of proportion to the amount I shoot. My handloading needs would be easily met by my Rockchucker press, yet I am so intrigued with the process that I have installed three progressives and a turret press on my bench. It is a hobby rather than a way to save money. Thanks for the response, you made me think about why I do this.

[barryjyoung]

Bohica2xo: Boeing runs punch presses too, or at least I am sure they must. I just never worked in a shop that did that kind of work.

Your response was filled with lots of new terms and good information. Please don’t let me wear you out, Still, it is good to get information from someone who knows.

“Blanking, notching & some forming was done in table setups regularly”. What are table setups?

I will look around here a little closer to see if there might be a punch press hiding. The economy has destroyed the used junque dealers I used to shop at around here. Punch presses are fascinating. There is not much info online about the principle. From what I can see it looks as though a punch holder is operated by a crankshaft carrying a large heavy flywheel driven through a ring gear. Am I close? It seems like the motor would have to start and stop each cycle which seems very inefficient. Surely I got that part wrong. Must be some sort of clutch involved.

Looks like I won’t be needing the transfer press. I looked a couple up and they are way out of my price range. But don’t think my mouth didn’t water when I saw them.

OK, I am fairly certain I can build the blanking dies here at the house. Just a matter of available time really. I still may buy a Corbin die rather than learn a new trade. I will bring home my Machinery’s Handbook and give it a look for the formulae, thank you.

“Solid copper swaging is not for the faint of heart. Tons of force on a .224 punch can be exciting...”
For those reading this who have not worked around large machinery,,,exciting is bad. Sometimes very bad. Dull, drab even boring is what we seek.

A screw machine, that DOES sound like fun. I haven’t run a screw machine in decades.

I really appreciate the time you obviously put into answering my question. Thank you

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

Table setups
A table setup is a work table that is bolted to the bed of the press, usually with a grid of tapped holes for attaching work stops. All die sets must be qualified to the height of the table.

A notching die is a simple shearing die with two open sides @ 90 degrees with a radius at the corner. The shearing edge is level with the table. A blanking die is a die holding arrangement that uses a standard round die size top & bottom, with the bottom die level with the table.

With the machine stopped, the notch punch is run down to a closed position, and a part template with an irregular shape is placed against the notch punch. Stops are set to the back edges of the template. The template is removed, and the machine started. An uncut part is placed into the stops... and bang the material hanging into the punch opening is gone.

3, 4 or 5 setups later, the part looks like the template. Corner notches for brake work is a real common use. A good operator can make 20 or more setups in a shift, and move many small orders. Round holes are done by the same process, but the punch is guided through the template by hand for setup, and a stripper may need to be adjusted.

We table formed countless flanged lightening holes in titanium intercostals this way - a round forming punch & a table setup. Blank holes, swap dies, form flanges.

Punch Presses
Most smaller presses are not geared. A simple V belt drives a flywheel continously. A mechanical dog clutch connects the flywheel to the crankshaft for one revolution, when the press is "tripped". The magic of a punch press lies in two things - speed, and equal force in both directions.

The stored energy in the flywheel is substantial. The ability to send it to the crankshaft suddenly makes the punch move quickly, which makes shearing easier. The heat generated by forming quickly stays with the part, and helps with forming too.

The reverse stroke power is very important for things like ejection & stripping. If your loading press only pushed, it would be a pain in the backside. Actually that is called reloading with an arbor press...

A punch press has a relatively precise guide on the ram. It is best to build really close tolerance stuff in a die set however. Look around for used presses & die sets. A die set can be used repeatedly, until it looks like swiss cheese. You could build your blanking & forming dies on a common diameter, and put bolster plates in an old die set to match. Then you could form in batches.

"exciting"
I guess I should define that. Snapping the shank on a 1/2" endmill with a heavy cut is annoying. Snapping the shank on a 2" endmill @ 25,000 rpm by going to .025 / tooth chip load is EXCITING. When a forming operation is close to bulging a D2 die that is Rc58, excitment can happen suddenly - and the flying pieces are like a whole magazine of 25acp headed your way.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

holy cow!!! a 2" end mill snapping... @25,000 RPM, is a bit more'n exciting...

'nuff said, I'll get in trouble...

Jim's biting his tongue! :P

[Frank46]

i've seen a pic of someone useing a large arbor press to form bullets. Don't know what the tonnage rateing was but the press was about 3-4' high. Should be able to locate one in used machinery sites online. I would guess a bigger is better approach.
We used one to broach keyways on pump impellers. Frank