My homemade Golden powder!

[Sandro_ventania]

I am a rocket scientist and have tested advanced solid rocket motors, and the added aluminum does them go faster so does adding a little nitrocellulose. The motors I have tested used ammonium perchlorate and HTPB (a kind of synthetic rubber) or PBAN (a kind of plastic), that is your cheap garden variety solid rocket motor (if you don't count the black powder ones). You want to juice that you add the aluminum and or Nitro. The juiced motors cost more and will erode the nozzle faster because of the higher temperatures.

As far as can adding aluminum to a hobby/fireworks rocket motor. It would be about getting the proportions right. The aluminum needs a lot of oxidizers just like charcoal so if you add aluminum you need to reduce the charcoal, you can't just add aluminum to improve the performance. If you reduce the charcoal to zero and replace it all with aluminum the motor will probably explode, Flash powder is much faster than black powder. Sure one could play around with ratios and probably get better velocities. I wonder about the fowling. Might not be too bad if the aluminum all burns to oxide but aluminum oxide is something that is made into sandpaper.

Something to think about. Same with adding nitro-cellulose and I don't mean duplex. Nitro-cellulose is a plastic, it might help make the GP flow better thru an extruder to make real grains like cordite.

There is not shortage of interesting paths to make gun powders.


Tim

It's great to have someone with experience here, thanks for contributing! The issue with nitrocellulose is that it is expensive to produce and gunpowder is already available. Maybe adding a percentage to the GP will make it stronger, still possible to use in the muzzleloader and at a much lower cost... What proportion do you consider ideal? But I think the search here is to find a product that is easy to make at home and that is independent of the arms industry. We should look at the advantages of GP, a cheap, easy to make and clean propellant. If you want more strength, increase the dose of powder!

[Sandro_ventania]

Have you ever heard of white powder? It's stronger than the GP, it's just not as clean... I've seen it used in 9mm. The recipe is also simple. 65% potassium nitrate (perchlorate is even better) and 35% starch. Put the nitrate to melt in boiling water, just like GP, after the nitrate is completely dissolved, remove from the heat and add the starch, mixing vigorously. then spread it on plastic and let it dry. Once dry, just grind and use. SP is stronger because of its formula, C6H10O6 having 2 more hydrogen molecules (fuel) than ascorbic acid C6H8O6. If your starch isn't very fine, running it through a ball mill should help.

[Sandro_ventania]

I've never seen iron oxide used in SP, maybe it makes it even better! Ahh... burning him free, he's slower than BP. but this says little, as smokeless powder is also slow.

[jreidthompson1]

As information

https://patents.justia.com/patent/5557151


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[2TM101]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach.

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

[HWooldridge]

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

I appreciate your scientific approach and look forward to the results - just please don't cause yourself any injury (or worse).

[Sandro_ventania]

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

This will be very useful for everyone! I read somewhere that BP lights up at 300°C (celsius), GP says it's above that.

[jreidthompson1]

The link with the patents indicate no heat or not to exceed 150 F

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[Super Sneaky Steve]

I don't have my Iron Oxide yet, but when I do I'm going to try and make Yellow Powder and Orange Powder by adding some sulfur to the mix. Sulfur less BP isn't very good so maybe it will improve performance in this new type of powder. It should also allow some compression of the dry mix if desired.

[dtknowles]

It's great to have someone with experience here, thanks for contributing! The issue with nitrocellulose is that it is expensive to produce and gunpowder is already available. Maybe adding a percentage to the GP will make it stronger, still possible to use in the muzzleloader and at a much lower cost... What proportion do you consider ideal? But I think the search here is to find a product that is easy to make at home and that is independent of the arms industry. We should look at the advantages of GP, a cheap, easy to make and clean propellant. If you want more strength, increase the dose of powder!

I mostly agree, in muzzle loaders there is no problem with increasing the dose/charge. In cartridges there might not be room for more powder. 5 percent nitrocellulose would be where I would start and no don't use it in black powder guns.

Repeat do not put any powder containing nitrocellulose in a black powder gun.

Where to get nitrocellulose, smokeless powder is the obvious source. A little would go a long way, just like duplexing only simpler.

Tim

[Sandro_ventania]

Repita, não coloque nenhum pó contendo nitrocelulose em uma pistola de pólvora negra.

We all always hear that. Okay, we never know which idiot will read this thread, do we? But in truth, we know that the problem is the measurement and not the product. Or do you really believe that a muzzleloader that works with 120 grains of Black powder will explode if loaded with 1 grain of smokeless??? So to be true, I repeat, the problem is not the product, the problem is the measurement. I don't like spreading a myth, just to protect idiots...let natural selection work...ha ha ha ha!!

[MUSTANG]

How does one convert (Finely cut?) the Nitro Cellulose product (Home Made) into a powder for inclusion into Golden Powder or.....? References and reproduction of the old "Gun Cotton" recipes/re-enactors have it as an uncompressed paper cartridge that is dropped into the period reproduction firearms of Europe of the time period. Inclusion into a Golden Powder is my query.

[ofitg]

It should be mentioned that nitrocellulose powder has an auto-ignition temperature (ie, "cook off" temperature) in the neighborhood of 300 degrees Fahrenheit (~ 150 degrees Celcius).

Sandro's photo back in post #30 suggests that this temperature might be reached during preparation of Golden Powder -

[MUSTANG]

Question. Are those making Golden Powder doing so with ingredients by Volume or by weight (i.e. citations of 60% and 40%).

I measured out 60/40 by weight percentage (180 grains and 120 grains) plus same VOLUME of distilled water which was 330 Grains by weight.

Which is being used - weight or volume?

[Nobade]

Weight here. I use my little digital gram scale.

[Nobade]

I don't have my Iron Oxide yet, but when I do I'm going to try and make Yellow Powder and Orange Powder by adding some sulfur to the mix. Sulfur less BP isn't very good so maybe it will improve performance in this new type of powder. It should also allow some compression of the dry mix if desired.

Please be careful with yellow powder! I was reading up on that today and it is pretty dangerous stuff. Certainly not something you'd want to use in a gun barrel. Don't know anything about orange powder though.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Please be careful with yellow powder! I was reading up on that today and it is pretty dangerous stuff. Certainly not something you'd want to use in a gun barrel. Don't know anything about orange powder though.

I only meant adding Sulfur to the Golden powder and the Crimson powder. I assume it would look yellow and orange. Just trying to get a jump on the patent

[MUSTANG]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.



It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.



It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

Did you measure your heat or cook time? We can learn a lot even from a failure.

[dtknowles]

We all always hear that. Okay, we never know which idiot will read this thread, do we? But in truth, we know that the problem is the measurement and not the product. Or do you really believe that a muzzleloader that works with 120 grains of Black powder will explode if loaded with 1 grain of smokeless??? So to be true, I repeat, the problem is not the product, the problem is the measurement. I don't like spreading a myth, just to protect idiots...let natural selection work...ha ha ha ha!!

Actually there is a bit of a product issue. Not all muzzleloaders can handle the same pressures. Each one could handle some charge of some nitro powder but nobody really know which ones can handle how much and finding out can be a problem. I actually have a muzzleloader designed for smokeless powder a Savage 10ML. It has never had blackpowder in it. I hear the manufacturer wants to get them all back for some reason. I am holding on to mine.

Tim