Too much fouling?

[Thundermaker]

i would lose the petroleum jelly. Instead mix 50'/50 beeswax and Crisco shorting (low sodium), more wax if hot. Or get some SPG or other recommended lube. Wet shooting works well. You can just use a mouthfull of water and straw to full the chamber/bore/ Keep your muzzle down. I would also go fatter softer bullet, more grooves, maybe a lube cookie under, with compression. Hopefully you can find some guys local to maybe get bullets to try. comment regarding brass are good thoughts as well. good luck

This is probably the best advice so far. The OP stated that he couldn't even chamber a subsequent round without wiping the bore. That's a lube problem. Petroleum products shouldn't be anywhere near a black powder gun.

There are a lot of black powder competition shooters here (I'm not a competitive BPCR shooter), and they all have their own preferred lube recipes. You'll notice that none of them contain Vaseline.

I second the 50/50 beeswax and unsalted Crisco. I use it on all my black powder bullets. It keeps my revolvers running all day, and the last shot is as accurate as the first. At the very least, it'll give you a starting point.

There are a lot of black powder competition shooters here (I'm not a competitive BPCR shooter), and they all have their own preferred lube recipes. You'll notice that none of them contain Vaseline.

[indian joe]

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

My 45/75 (Uberti 20" twist) handled the 535 grain ok at 100yards but I regrouped

I had David do that for me - three lube grooves instead of four, the boolit weighs right around 466 grains.

Heres ten at 100yards no cleaning
The low shot is first up cold clean barrel - its an 1876 Uberti Lever - decent vernier tang sights - old eyes - blow tube and shot slow to control barrel heating (a problem with this gun and many levers walking up the target as the barrel heats in relation to the magazine tube - maybe forend contact too) I think this gun ammo combo is capable of about half what you see here but the operator is a little inconsistent - its in there - just cant quite get it out

[indian joe]

The length is the thing to watch, not necessarily the weight.
1-20 twist keeping the bullet length to 1.4 or 1.42 at the max should give reasonable stability, providing you get the powder charge/velocity up to 1200 fps or there about.

The 535 version of that CBE measures 1.440 - might be struggling to get 1200FPS out of it in a 45/70 case ? I doubt you would even get close with wano powder - unless he can hang two lube grooves out of the case and still chamber it ok ?

[Don McDowell]

Joe 65 - 70 grains should get awfully close to 1200 FPS


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[Lead pot]

I have to respond to the use of Vaseline in bullet lube.

People that say never use Vaseline for a black powder lube. It has been used for bullet lube shortly after it was invented back in 1870 before smokeless powder came around. Even the old NRA bullet lube was with a mix of Vaseline. Look through the old BPCR History books from the late 1800rds and beyond through the years you will see it mentioned often.
I been using it straight for muzzleloader patch lube since the mid 50's and I still use it straight for patch lube because it lets me shoot a 30 shot match without ever having to clean the bore and I can push the ball down my 42" barrel with out having to pound it down like some do after only 5 shots fired.
I use a mix of vaseline, Soy wax or Ozokerite Wax, Look that wax up once, and either coco butter or peanut oil. I used it for PP bullets with a lube wad and clean up is not a problem.
Using vaseline in my lube mix has never failed me with temperatures above 100º of below zero.

So pin my ears back from what I put down here

Silhouette,

I think your problem not being able to chamber a round probably is fouling control or the bullet deformed loading it in the case, I don't know if you compress the powder using the bullet so I cant say if that is it. Or your bullet is seated out too far where the driving band hits the throat too hard.

[Don McDowell]

There are many lube recipes from back in the day that use various petroleum products ranging from oil dag, to cylinder oil to Vaseline in combination with a wide variety of waxes


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[Thundermaker]

Well, Lead pot, looks like I have an experiment to do.

[Silhouette]

Silhouette,

I think your problem not being able to chamber a round probably is fouling control or the bullet deformed loading it in the case, I don't know if you compress the powder using the bullet so I cant say if that is it. Or your bullet is seated out too far where the driving band hits the throat too hard.

I'm confident that the bullet is not getting deformed. I don't use the bullet to compress. I determined the seating depth with a dummy round by starting long and seating a few thou at a time until I could push the round in easily with my thumb.
Perhaps I should seat a bit deeper to allow room for a little bit of fouling in the throat?

I won't get to do any more shooting before the weekend now but will make up some more test loads in the meantime.

[indian joe]

Joe 65 - 70 grains should get awfully close to 1200 FPS


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I always reckoned wano grain for grain (note weight NOT volume) is chrono about 100 weaker than Goex - if the wano is denser and he can get a few more grains in - maybe - agree 70 grains should likely do it.

[Don McDowell]

Joe I haven't shot any Wano, but the red can Goex is screened to a larger size than Swiss and a bit larger than Schuetzen. I don't have the notes handy from when I choreographed a number of different powders, but it sticks in my head that 70 grains of 2f Goex gave a 535 gr bullet the velocity of 1190 avg of 5 shots.
My guess is somewhere north of 65 grains that Wano will probably clean up on the fouling, and adding a jigger of jojoba oil to the beeswax/petroleum jelly recipe will help a bunch in keeping the fouling softer.

[Gunlaker]

Don the Wano/Schuetzen powder is really slow stuff. In my .45-2.4" Borchardt FFg Schuetzen gave nearly 100 fps less than Swiss 1.5 for similar powder charges. It shot well for 200 yard practice. Terrible velocity SD so I wouldn't want to shoot it at long range. But maybe it needed a ton more compression or something.

My first black powder rifle was an old Pedersoli Sharps that I'm pretty sure was a 1:20 twist. It shot a 535gr Postell style bullet bullet not too badly with Goex FFg.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, Cartridge was a slow powder and without enough compression it shoots horribly dirty. Get the compression right it's still on the slow side but shoots clean and quite accurately. It is a great powder in the 50x2 or so it has been the best in the one rifle I've spent some time working with so chambered.
So I'm thinking that Wano may be the same way. Mash the snot out of it and see if it comes alive?
The original postel came about as a result of military teams looking to make fine scores at long distance with trapdoors etc, and unless they had the armorer messing around with barrels, those would of been mostly 20 or possibly 22 twists.

[Yellowhouse]

You could always dry brush the chamber to help in loading another round. Speaking of, if you shoot wet I'd think you'd at least want to dry that chamber.

[GregLaROCHE]

As I see it, the boolit’s grease groves have enough grease to lube the boolit and most of the grease cookie is left behind to soften burnt powder residue to make it easier to load the next round and may help improving accuracy a bit. If others disagree, please let me know your opinion.

[Castaway]

For my two cents worth, if the bullet carries sufficient lube, a grease cookie is not only redundant, but used at the expense of more powder

[Gunlaker]

So I'm thinking that Wano may be the same way. Mash the snot out of it and see if it comes alive?

That's what I'd try if I used it again. Unless I have no access to Swiss or OE, I don't plan on buying it again though. I bought a couple pounds a few years ago and ran it through my Borchardt just because I was curious about the stuff.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris we ran some Schuetzen 2f during the time after they quit Express and started up OE. It worked well in the 45-70's with 65 grains and a .030 fiber wad, under the RCBS 530 gr bullet. That was just enough in the case to just barely set the wad into, and let the bullet seat out to the driving band. The big problem with that bullet is the 3 lube grooves it starts to fall apart past 800 from a 45-70.

[indian joe]

For my two cents worth, if the bullet carries sufficient lube, a grease cookie is not only redundant, but used at the expense of more powder

yup! and a messy PITA to boot

[indian joe]

As I see it, the boolit’s grease groves have enough grease to lube the boolit and most of the grease cookie is left behind to soften burnt powder residue to make it easier to load the next round and may help improving accuracy a bit. If others disagree, please let me know your opinion.

Greg
I detest lube cookies - (no secret I think we are allowed to have differences of opinion) - the purpose they serve is to compensate for a boolit design that is deficient in the lube groove area - for black powder shooting -

There are a lot of molds out there that cast a boolit that is fine for smokeless yet will not cut it using blackpowder - I bet proportionally there is more black shot now in these "old fashioned" calibers than when many of those molds were designed and first cut so this 'deficiency' is understandable.

Are there issues with compression/deformation at liftoff due to the lube grooves in some boolits?
thats above my paygrade but it would not surprise me at all with the likes of mav dutchman design

Don re the Wano - my experience similar to Chris - velocity minus 100FPS - I started out with muzzleloaders and 5 lb of Aussie made "Musket brand" powder - that ran out I got a couple tins of red can Goex -- the wano man was coming to a major shoot, I called him, went to the shoot (all our club was using it) I got lucky he had decamped early and only left me one kilo bottle of FFFg (I was pissed off at the time but forgave him when I tried the stuff) - that was enough to send me off scouring the countryside for those red and white cans, I checked out every shop within a two hundred mile radius and bought every can of Goex I could find, later a mate from another club made a deal with the fireworks manufacturer where he would buy a 50lb pack of 5FA Goex (ungraphited) paper sack with two 25lb bags inside - he would take one for his club I took the other, leaked a bit of it out to club members but I build a decent stash too - had it squirreled away all round the farm - still have 5 kg of that 5FA (my rainy day stash - this is early 1990's - pre the Moosic plant blowing). That grade is a bit lively for these bigger cartridges but it shot ok.

I never shot enough Wano to really test the level of compression - maybe like you say, lean on it enough it might wake up. For sure there are more variables with blackpowder than there are constants.

[indian joe]

Chris we ran some Schuetzen 2f during the time after they quit Express and started up OE. It worked well in the 45-70's with 65 grains and a .030 fiber wad, under the RCBS 530 gr bullet. That was just enough in the case to just barely set the wad into, and let the bullet seat out to the driving band. The big problem with that bullet is the 3 lube grooves it starts to fall apart past 800 from a 45-70.

Don ---"fall apart" whats going on there ? drag on the lube grooves ? gets the wobbles from lack of speed? distortion at the rear end ? interested in your take here !