38 special

[redriverhunter]

I got me a charter arms 38 special with a two inch barrel. I have quite a few bags of win 125 jhp. I have a lot of bullseye powder so I am thinking about making a self defense loads. I am looking at 4.4 gns of b.e.. do you all think I will have it going fast enough to expand? I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p
thanks rrh

[Cargo]

This is the reason I bought the wife a few boxes of the Speer 110s for short barrels and I'm loading her 148gr WCs. I don't have to worry about the WCs clogging and not expanding and they're going to poke holes in all the important things. Recoil is light and she can rattle them right onto target from her airweight.

[charlie b]

Winchester Silver Tips or copper jacketed? If copper jacketed it is probably a crap shoot as to whether or not you will get them to expand. I'd just load them to normal vel for practice rounds.

For defense loads I'd either get 158 SWC bullets or go the lightweight route. If available then buy some commercial self defense ammo made for the .38spl.

Some good info:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

[BKS]

Wadcutters have a great reputation in 2” j frames by people that have put bullets into humans.
The Airweight that is my constant companion is loaded with wadcutters.

[Petrol & Powder]

redriverhunter, not enough information.

What KIND of 125 gr JHP ?
And I'm not sure I agree with, "I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p" . Whether or not Charter Arms rates their gun for +P probably has more to do with the strength of the gun than with the length of the barrel. You may be jumping to a conclusion as to WHY Charter Arms assigns a particular pressure rating.

A 125gr JHP and 4.4 grains of Bullseye will probably bring you in just under +P, however, one of my Speer Manuals shows the STARTING load for a Standard pressure load (non +P) with a 125gr JHP at 4.5 grains of Bullseye and warns to NOT reduce that charge.

I always consider bullet expansion to just be the icing on the cake. I always strive for good terminal performance and don't really care what the bullet looks like when the shooting stops. Some people spend half their life trying to turn bullets into perfect mushrooms, I think there are better criteria to seek.

[Petrol & Powder]

And by the way, Charter Arms doesn't Recommend the use of +P ammunition in their aluminum framed guns chambered in 38 Special (Undercover and Off-Duty models) but I don't believe they specifically forbid the use of +P ammunition in those guns.

[racepres]

Is penetration/over penetration a concern??
Personally, have never used Jacketed projectiles in 38Spl

[rintinglen]

LAPD for years issued Remington 125 grain +P JHP "controlled expansion" rounds with excellent results.

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

[pettypace]

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

Maybe... But Hatcher, Fackler, and some center-shot small critters indicate that the WC out-performs the LRN.

My own experience is limited. But in Clear Ballistic gel, the WC makes a much bigger entrance hole and a slightly (but perceptively) bigger wound path. I don't know how that translates to coroners' reports, but I do have a lot of faith in Hatcher and Fackler.

For a defense load in a .38 snubby, I'd prefer a target WC over a LRN and most any home-grown JHP load.

[Dale53]

Redriverhunter;
As far as I am concerned, THIS is the answer:

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011...rge-wadcutter/

Dale53

P.S. If you are not interested in using reloads for self defense, then, again, THE answer is the FBI load (158gr Hollow Point .38 Special) loaded by one of the Factories. However, good luck today in finding ANY ammo much less a specific load.

FWIW
Dale53

[Dunross]

I load 125gr wadcutters for my wife's 38 snubby. She can control them and very importantly they shoot to point of aim. I was having a hard time finding a factory 158gr load that would do that.

[JoeJames]

redriverhunter, not enough information.

What KIND of 125 gr JHP ?
And I'm not sure I agree with, "I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p" . Whether or not Charter Arms rates their gun for +P probably has more to do with the strength of the gun than with the length of the barrel. You may be jumping to a conclusion as to WHY Charter Arms assigns a particular pressure rating.

A 125gr JHP and 4.4 grains of Bullseye will probably bring you in just under +P, however, one of my Speer Manuals shows the STARTING load for a Standard pressure load (non +P) with a 125gr JHP at 4.5 grains of Bullseye and warns to NOT reduce that charge.

I always consider bullet expansion to just be the icing on the cake. I always strive for good terminal performance and don't really care what the bullet looks like when the shooting stops. Some people spend half their life trying to turn bullets into perfect mushrooms, I think there are better criteria to seek.

From my own personal experience there is a very good reason Speer warned “not to reduce that charge” with a J-word. It takes a bunch more pressure to get a J-word boolit to even exit the barrel as opposed to a lead boolit. In other words you might end up with it lodged near the end of the barrel. Firing the next round could make things rather a problem. And a jhp would not expand anyway but would have the same effect as a lead round nose. A lead wad cutter or a lead semi-wadcutter would have a much broader meplat than the jhp or a lead round nose.

[Outpost75]

The Speer warning on not reducing the minimum charges with Bullseye when using jacketed bullets is with respect to bullet-in-bore malfunctions, or BIB, in which a cylinder gap larger than "mean assembly tolerance" may result in a bullet failing to exit the barrel, such that it remains as an obstruction.

This problem was very well documented with Army M41 Ball 130-grain FMJ cartridges fired in older S&W Victory Model revolvers having cylinder gaps which approached the field reject maximum of pass 0.008"/hold 0.009".

BIBs are less common in 2-inch barrels, but VERY common in 4 inchers which are loose. Hence, the warning.

My experience has been that most .38 Special JHP bullets do not expand appreciably below about 850 fps. The notable exception is the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" loads which expand reliably at 800 fps., attainable within standard pressure from 2-inch barrel guns assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005"/hold 0.006" using 4.3-4.4 grains of Bullseye.

[dverna]

Redriverhunter;
As far as I am concerned, THIS is the answer:

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011...rge-wadcutter/

Dale53

P.S. If you are not interested in using reloads for self defense, then, again, THE answer is the FBI load (158gr Hollow Point .38 Special) loaded by one of the Factories. However, good luck today in finding ANY ammo much less a specific load.

FWIW
Dale53

That was a great article by someone who has more than keyboard experience. Thanks for posting it!

[Drm50]

In 80s I had 5 customers bulge barrels with 1/2 jacket pistol bullets. 357, 44 and 45- S&W, Colt and Ruger. All results of light loads that threw cores and left 1/2 jacket in bore.

[Prairie Cowboy]

LAPD for years issued Remington 125 grain +P JHP "controlled expansion" rounds with excellent results.

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

I am certainly no expert in ballistics, but it stands to reason that a wide metplat imparts more hydrostatic shock than a RN bullet. So, while the apparent permanent physical damage to the tissue may appear the same afterwards, perhaps the wadcutters are more effective on impact.

[TNsailorman]

If you want a truly damaging load, try loading a 148 HBWC bullet backwards with the hollow base nose first. Shoot a 1 gallon water jug and watch what happens. I loaded some for a couple of Sheriff's deputies back in the 60's for after hours carry in snub nose revolvers. They both loved them until the Sheriff found out about them and said NO in plain language. I think he was worried about lawsuits by surviving family members. My old supplier retired and then passed away so I don't currently have someone to buy them from. I need to load some more of them for my wife's Mode 15 and my Model 13.
Anybody? james

[Petrol & Powder]

The backwards loaded hollow base wadcutter is an urban legend that refuses to die.
I tested that concoction and it did not impress me. I believe it is one of those things that persists because the "ingredients" to make it are readily available and everyone thinks it is some type of super secret hack that has been suppressed.

At any distance beyond about 7 yards, the accuracy is horrible. When driven at any type of useful velocity, the skirt either breaks away and deprives the slug of needed mass or folds back on itself.

This is one of those ideas that looks good at first glance (gee that would make a huge hollowpoint) but then you ask, "why hasn't someone duplicated this"?

[rfd]

Better to load wadcutters for SD.

[Goldstar225]

The backwards loaded hollow base wadcutter is an urban legend that refuses to die.
I tested that concoction and it did not impress me. I believe it is one of those things that persists because the "ingredients" to make it are readily available and everyone thinks it is some type of super secret hack that has been suppressed.

At any distance beyond about 7 yards, the accuracy is horrible. When driven at any type of useful velocity, the skirt either breaks away and deprives the slug of needed mass or folds back on itself.

This is one of those ideas that looks good at first glance (gee that would make a huge hollowpoint) but then you ask, "why hasn't someone duplicated this"?

Agreed. I've been hearing this quoted for over 40 years. If the inverted HBWC was as good as is often claimed, every manufacturer would have it prominently placed in their line up.