severe leading on first cast boolits

[onelight]

Nope I like as long as will plunk . If it still works in the magazine. My P220 mag will not take as long a round with some boolits as some of my other guns.

[guy_with_boolits]

Is there some reason to not seat as long as reasonable within SAAMI Min/Max
...as long as the barrel geometry/throating continues to "plunk" it?
See Post #107 again)
.....

Is throat depth/rifling distance from headspace shoulder, part of what a case gauge evaluates or is that outside its scope?

[guy_with_boolits]

Taz a member here has posted simple way to give you a starting point for seating depth for auto pistols .
After you size your bullets you can see the shiny mark left by the sizer , your case mouth when seating the bullet is going to land close to the end of that mark. On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.
The sizer mark gives you a spot for the case mouth to land on a round nose also but you will need to see if the ogive of the bullet is touching the rifling enough to prevent the plunk test from working if it does , that will require deeper seating or a DougGuy mod to your barrel. Seat as long as will plunk and fit in your mag . At this point you have to see if the cartridge will feed from the mag in your gun.
And if you deep seat start your powder charge low and work up I load 5 at a time cause I don't like clumsy single shots. When you get worked up to where it locks the slide you have your minimum for that combination in that gun. If you record all this info you won't have to do it again for that gun with that bullet and powder.

are the SWC tumble lube grooves are tapered towards the front? why does the sizer mark end before they do?

based on all of your advices, and my desire to not modify the barrel, it looks like my only options to continue using this SWC are:

-use a much harder lead
-experiment with a .451 sizer

.451 sizer enroute so we will definitely see how that goes
harder lead is not something I'm in the mood to do for this so it will have to wait until i make harder lead for some other reason
MP-452-200 mold will be here in a couple days..that may distract me permanently from SWC experiments

I've already done what I think are accurate COAL experiments and the SWC even when touching the rifling still results in a 1.18" or so COAL

To note: I have not actually proven its the COAL thats causing the jams. It seems to be. But the lead is clearly VERY soft. Even just operating the slide without the recoil spring leaves a flat dent in the bullet nose when it jams. Maybe thats the whole thing.

What should I do with all these PC'd and ALOX'd SWCs? Are they dangerous? Should I hide them along with my shame?

[mehavey]

Is throat depth/rifling distance from headspace shoulder, part of what a case gauge evaluates or is that outside its scope?

The case gauge cannot give you feedback on the actual throat (and...)
I therefore always recommend using the actual barrel as best gauge.

(If you have multiple guns, it must pass all barrels to be interchangeable.)

[Conditor22]

To measure the OAL of that gun with that boolit
1) slide a rod down the barrel until it touches the bolt face and put a mark on the rod where it comes out of the barrel (I like to use a washer that will fit over the rod with a wrap of tape on it and mark the tape with a flat razor)
2) start a boolit in a case then slide it in the chamber until it stops. Holding the case/boolit in place Repeat step # 1)
3) measure the distance between the marks.

IF you have a tight throat, you may have to seat that boolit deep also.

[onelight]

are the SWC tumble lube grooves are tapered towards the front? why does the sizer mark end before they do?

based on all of your advices, and my desire to not modify the barrel, it looks like my only options to continue using this SWC are:

-use a much harder lead
-experiment with a .451 sizer

.451 sizer enroute so we will definitely see how that goes
harder lead is not something I'm in the mood to do for this so it will have to wait until i make harder lead for some other reason
MP-452-200 mold will be here in a couple days..that may distract me permanently from SWC experiments

I've already done what I think are accurate COAL experiments and the SWC even when touching the rifling still results in a 1.18" or so COAL

To note: I have not actually proven its the COAL thats causing the jams. It seems to be. But the lead is clearly VERY soft. Even just operating the slide without the recoil spring leaves a flat dent in the bullet nose when it jams. Maybe thats the whole thing.

What should I do with all these PC'd and ALOX'd SWCs? Are they dangerous? Should I hide them along with my shame?

Hopefully this won't be your last 45 so save them at the worst you can melt them down a recast. What you are experiencing was typical with 1911s in the past it used to be the exception that did not need to be throated and ramped to feed most SWC bullets. If you know any one that has a 1911 that will chamber your loads from the magazine try the magazine they use in your gun and see if they will feed.

[mehavey]

Yer gonna hate this . . .

But if you have some Lee Liquid ALOX sitting around, 'lightly' grease your thumb/forefinger with it.
Then 'lightly' wipe the nose of the (PC'd) SWC with it and let it dry overnight.
You might be amazed.

[guy_with_boolits]

Yer gonna hate this . . .

But if you have some Lee Liquid ALOX sitting around, 'lightly' grease your thumb/forefinger with it.
Then 'lightly' wipe the nose of the (PC'd) SWC with it and let it dry overnight.
You might be amazed.

I did half the boolits in ALOX instead of PC..aren't they defacto what you describe above? I haven't tried loading them at all yet

[mehavey]

My impression was you had problems with PC'd SWC.
The (thin-film dried) permits the PC coat to better "slip" when hitting the chamber top going in.

Both versions had trouble?

[guy_with_boolits]

My impression was you had problems with PC'd SWC.
The (thin-film dried) permits the PC coat to better "slip" when hitting the chamber top going in.

Both versions had trouble?

I haven't even tried the ALOX'd ones yet. Maybe they work ok! They are still a little tacky even after overnight dry and oven baking for 20 mins. But I'd rather shoot them then remelt.

[guy_with_boolits]

sooooo although this SWC exercise does have some valuable lessons, I am going to move on to my new hollow points (pic related)

I loaded up all the alox'd SWC's and I'll go shoot them, chrono them, and put the results here

I will also alox the noses of the PC'd SWCS per Mehavey and see how that goes

But I doubt I will cast any more SWC's, I'll probably sell the mold

Or am I being too hasty? Any reason to keep on making SWC's?

[canyon-ghost]

If you fire lead after shooting jacketed, copper fouling can cause leading. I cleaned a revolver 4 times before it stopped. And I have 3 different 9mm pistols. A good brass brush can work wonders.

[Hanzy4200]

It surprises me people are still using alox with the ease of PC. I tumble lubed for years, went conventional lube sizing for about 6 months before trying PC. Now, 95% of my cast is PC. Easy, no wax or tacky goo, superb performance.

[Hossfly]

I inherited a Lyman 450, never even tried to use it, started pc and that’s all I’ve used. Ive never seen leading in anything, except on this forum.

[guy_with_boolits]

Thanks. I already tried without a sizer and the bullets would definitely not chamber.

So now what I am doing is:

half the boolits of same alloy alox'd using the greasy bad/fingers method from post #9 (warm alox, plenty of it, tumbled in a bag, dried overnight).
half the boolits pc'd @ 400 for 20mins the water dropped

both sized to 452 before alox/PC..not sure if I will re-size alox but I will resize PC

as expected some of the PC boolits have missing PC because of touching other boolits or the rack they were on..is that a big deal?

Okay today I chroned/tested the ALOX'd, plunk-tested, properly COAL'd for my pistol SWC's

LEE 452-200-SWC
unknown lead alloy, probably soft
1.17" +0/-.006" COAL
Plunk/rotate tested most of them
4.6gn bullseye
random range pickup brass
ALOX'd with alot of ALOX (see youtube videos)..not cut with anything..straight warm alox dribbled in a bag and the bag massaged
did 20 mins of oven drying then a few days sitting around

Shot 7 rounds, got 7 chronos
842
856
834
811
836
847
831

Alliant data says 807fps at 1.19" min OAL for 4.6 gn bullseye w/ 200gn LSWC..I think the higher fps may be due to the shorter COAL?

And..the original issue that started this thread...drum roll please!!!

Does not appear to be any leading! Some kind of black/dark residue in grooves (more like a smudge..not chunks of lead)..anyways whatever it was cleaned to a mirror finish with a few strokes of phosphor bronze brush and hoppes 9 on a single square plus a cleanup with a paper towel..nowhere near the mayhem of the original leading issue

No failure to feeds either! Ejected cases do have light scratches where they smash the barrel bevel but nowhere near as bad as the PC ones..

I have about 30 more of these and will shoot them all and measure accuracy..maybe this is usable after all

[mehavey]

PC is really nifty, convenient, and works really well 98% of all applications
Thin film("greased") straight Lee Liquid ALOX* remains magic when all else fails.




* Thin film/225°oven-dried/24-hour "rest" -- good forever

[guy_with_boolits]

PC is really nifty, convenient, and works really well 98% of all applications
Thin film("greased") straight Lee Liquid ALOX* remains magic when all else fails.




* Thin film/225°oven-dried/24-hour "rest" -- good forever

I wish LEE would just issue more descriptive information about ALOX. What it is, how it works, and how application impacts it.

But yes, this is very promising. I will keep ALOX around for sure and do some head-to-head with PC. I dont find the ALOX tackiness to be a big deal and it was not messy applying it using a bag. About similar mess wise to PC, maybe cleaner since it doesnt make clouds of microscopic dust.

[mehavey]

Are you oven drying standing up, or just dumped from the baggie?

If standing up, just wipe off most of the excess w/ your thumb/forefinger
as you pick them up to put on the cookie sheet. You need (almost) nothing.

Did I say thin film ?






ps: as they come out the oven, the warm/hot ALOX will still be (thin) liquid. But all
the solvent is mostly gone. Dries to final/hard coating very efficiently after 24-hr rest.

pps: I (Lee push-through) size before ALOXing, and so shoot them as-is after drying.

ppps: I PC almost everything now. But when I say that sometimes ALOX cures-what-can't-be-cured... believe me.

pppps: I haven't tried it for COVID yet.

[onelight]

Congratulations on your field test !
It's great to hear they cycled and the velocity is in the range that is good .
You hung in there and put some boolits down range .

[canyon-ghost]

Congrats, now you have something!