severe leading on first cast boolits

[DougGuy]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

Here's the link to Char Gar's post of how his range session went after he sent the barrel this way.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...dos-to-DougGuy

There is another very long thread here from a guy trying to get the 452423 to work in a 1911, several pages worth, he finally gave up and conceded it could not be done. Same booit Char Gar is using, and this is before I started offering barrel throating and cylinder throat honing to members here.

[cupajoe]

I first throated a pistol barrel shortly after member BD posted a thread in the handgun section showing before and after pics of a 1911 barrel. Its a sticky now. Doug has posted several pics as well. A properly throated pistol barrel is a wonderful thing and easy to do if you have the tools.

[guy_with_boolits]

some BIGGGG updates:

update #1

I took the recoil spring out and did some jam tests with my 1.16" COAL SWC's

Its clear the nose jams into the barrel feed bevel..the COAL and the SWC profile and the soft lead just act to cause it to stop its upward tilt and jam ...its highly repeatable

its not the exact jam I was getting on slide release but I think during actual recoil-spring release the forces are so high, it momentarily jams like this then it does a 3 point jam where it gets the crescent shaped dent on the case

update #2

okay I have measured the barrel groove diameter at the exit end and it appears to be between 0.451 and 0.452

the throat end seems similar

sharpie-ing my cast SWC's show rifling marks during the plunk test at 1.16 COAL, and they measure about the same as the groove diameter

so it would appear my cast bullets are probably too big to go into the throat

if only someone had mentioned slugging my barrel and sizing the bullets to fit! why didnt someone, ANYONE, say this???

haha jk

so I will be buying a lee 0.451" sizer or a similar sizer

sound like a plan?

this would let me increase the COAL probably .030" or more if the bullet can fit in the throat, and in theory this should give better angles during feeding, not to mention proper chambering (presumably this design likes bullets to be in the throat instead of outside it)

[DougGuy]

Ok I give up. I lay out all the knowledge and add photos to it and you want to size smaller. There is a reason people use .452" boolits ALMOST 100% because if .451" worked there never would have been these myriad threads about leading in a 1911, there never would have been a sticky about reaming barrel throats, and I would have never started a business doing this. Otoh, there would not have been HUNDREDS of happy shooters like Char-Gar but suit yourself. You are wasting your money and your time trying to get around the problem.

[mehavey]

Apparently already throated (per DG's strong recommendation)
Sized at normal .452" (and same barrel as shown in previous post)

[onelight]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .
Google 45acp SWC and look at the images and it will give you an idea of what oal looks like on most reloads.

[DougGuy]

Apparently already throated (per DG's strong recommendation)
Sized at normal .452" (and same barrel as shown in previous post)

I don't think that's throated, as it has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, there is zero freebore. If I had pin gages in that barrel, I am certain that it would be found to be a sufficient diameter to allow the SWC round as pictured, to plunk. A barrel with rifling all the way to the chamber mouth, and allowing a .452" which is seated proud of the case, to plunk, is definitely an anomaly.

[guy_with_boolits]

Ok I give up. I lay out all the knowledge and add photos to it and you want to size smaller. There is a reason people use .452" boolits ALMOST 100% because if .451" worked there never would have been these myriad threads about leading in a 1911, there never would have been a sticky about reaming barrel throats, and I would have never started a business doing this. Otoh, there would not have been HUNDREDS of happy shooters like Char-Gar but suit yourself. You are wasting your money and your time trying to get around the problem.

seems to me throating the barrel to .452 or sizing the bullet to .451 both have the same net result, allowing the bullet to chamber deeper and the COAL to be increased, and both cost money (throating being more) and only one doesnt modify my pistol

[guy_with_boolits]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .

if the groove diameter is smaller than the cast boolit then how can the cast boolit be expected to chamber into the throat?

I get the when fired the bullet will be deformed but there isnt enough force during chambering

[guy_with_boolits]

I'm just trying to figure out whats going on here

How is my 0.452 cast SWC supposed to chamber into the throat if its .451?

[guy_with_boolits]

Let me just say this: I dont want to modify my pistol. I already bought a hollow point mold so if I cant get SWC to work thats fine.

Are some people accomplishing this by crimping the bullet just enough at the case mouth so it fits the throat, but the rest of the boolit is still oversize?

[guy_with_boolits]

If your groove diameter is .452 that is the smallest most here would recommend for cast. When you slug your bore you are measuring groove dia.
Almost all standard 1911 pistols in the old days needed to be throated to feed anything but round nose it was SOP apparently some still do. My last couple did not a SA and a kimber .
Google 45acp SWC and look at the images and it will give you an idea of what oal looks like on most reloads.

does that apply to PC'd cast?

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to commit heresy here [not the 1st time and probably not the last] and say that while everyone and their brother here are fixated with "fit is king".....I am not.

Case in point concerning your leading problem. I have literally fired a bajillion cast 45 bullets out of a bunch of 45 ACP handguns, mostly M1911s and M1917s, and I have never, ever slugged the barrel of a M1911.....factory, custom or military. Additionally I have never, ever had a leading problem when I used a proper lube because I learned a long time ago [in other cartridges] if a cast bullet of proper alloy is at least groove diameter any leading is 99% going to be caused by the lube not doing it's job. Consequently I have been using a .452 sizer from day one of loading cast bullets for use in M1911s and M1917 [both S&W & Colts even with their oversized throats] lubed with Javelina, Tamarac, BAC or other NRA 50/50 type lubes w/o any leading.

I have also shot a lot of .451 sized commercial cast bullets which did lead because of the hard wax lube used on them. Initially I removed the hard wax lube and lubed them with one of the mentioned lubes. Those bullets then shot excellently w/o any leading. I then found light coat of LLA over the hard cast bullets w/o de-lubing them also prevented most of the leading if not all.....result being it was the lube failing causing the leading, not the "fit".

If you just want to TL I suggest you get some LLA and lube your bullets as per the Lee instructions using a very light coat with each application. Let the bullets air dry thoroughly between coats and sizing/loading. I have helped numerous others who had similar leading problems to yours who also were using home made lubes. Once they used a lube of known performance the leading problem went away. Now, before I get a bunch of posts about home made lubes "working" let me say not everyone makes the lubes or applies them the same or correctly even with the same formula or instructions. Some home made lubes are gonna work, but some are not. Not saying you made a bad lube but the evidence of leading you posted is pretty supportive of that conclusion. Don't feel bad as many of us have made bad lubes also......the thing is to admit it, correct the problem and, in the end, be happy with non-leading bullets.......

I'm not sure if baking adversely affects the lube(?) but that is something to be tested later after correcting your leading problem.

[DougGuy]

seems to me throating the barrel to .452 or sizing the bullet to .451 both have the same net result, allowing the bullet to chamber deeper and the COAL to be increased, and both cost money (throating being more) and only one doesnt modify my pistol

They won't have the same net result. That's *why* we throat them, so you CAN use a .452" which since it is .001" bigger than groove diameter, forms a better seal in the bore than the same boolit sized .451" The .452" will generally always work better than the .451" at making this seal, and achieving the seal in the bore, with the right lube, will have you putting hundreds of rounds through that barrel without even cleaning it. Yes the longer COA will have it feeding much better than a shorter COA. This is why the 10mm is called the "magic bullet" because it is long in profile and feeds like butter.

One other thing that no one has mentioned yet is tuning your extractor. This can have a major impact on those 3pt jams. Take the slide off, slip a round up the breech face from the bottom, hook it under the extractor. Now.. How much effort does it take to slide it under the extractor hook? Too much required will greatly add to the probability of it jamming. It is a well known process by many smiths to "tune" the extractor so there is a reasonable amount of energy required to slide the round under the hook, the trick, and the sweet spot comes when it doesn't take a lot of effort to do this, but once under the hook, shake the slide back and forth. The round should remain in the extractor hook and not fall out.

Typically, you would take a small square file, fine tooth, and radius the bottom of the recessed part, where the rim first encounters the extractor, and you would also radius the back side of the hook itself, but only the bottom part. Since the round will be at an angle when it begins to slide up the breech face from the magazine, this radius makes it smoother going. You should also press the round against the breech face and the tip of the extractor should NOT contact the beveled part of the case ahead of the rim. You can file that part shorter as well, these are the THREE areas you want to address with the extractor.

Having the correct COA will greatly improve feeding, but if that extractor is too stiff, that will cause it to want to jam, and also the round *underneath* the round being chambered, is what pushes the top round upwards and under the hook, often the magazine spring if it is too weak will not push up hard enough, so once the extractor is tuned and the hook is radiused, it makes this function easier too.

You have to figure, NONE of these factory made 1911s are intended for anything BUT factory ammo. Once you get into the handloads, now you need to tune the gun to shoot them flawlessly. Go read the thread I linked from Char-Gar. He "gets" it. You don't. Not yet anyway. Good luck doing it the hard way, I throat them way cheaper than you can buy the tooling and it just works. LOTS of guys here can attest to that.

[mehavey]

I don't think that's throated, as it has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, there is zero freebore.

Oh it's freebored and throated....



But effective (25yds):

[onelight]

Let me just say this: I dont want to modify my pistol. I already bought a hollow point mold so if I cant get SWC to work thats fine.

Are some people accomplishing this by crimping the bullet just enough at the case mouth so it fits the throat, but the rest of the boolit is still oversize?

Yes if it won't plunk it won't chamber . If it plunks but won't feed from the magazine you need a different magazine , a gunsmith or a different bullet . 45 auto is very forgiving in my experience , slow low pressure cartridge see post #113
But you have to be able to chamber it . And it has to engage the rifling when fired . The chamber is the part of the barrel from the hood to the shoulder where the case mouth stops the throat is where the the full size .452 part of the bullet that is in front of the case sets and the ogive of the bullet has to fit in the rifling without preventing the case from fully entering the chamber. The traditional way to do this with most 45 autos is the shoulder of a SWC about a finger nail above the case mouth if that won't feed and you don't want to have your barrel modified ( gun smith reshapes the barrel at the ramp)you need a different bullet. And if a cast bullet even a RN .452 it may have to be seated deeper than what the manual says to chamber. DougGuy can fix the chamber and perhaps the ramp if needed. Or you may be able to buy a drop in barrel that is already set up for SWC / cast bullets.

[guy_with_boolits]

Yes if it won't plunk it won't chamber . If it plunks but won't feed from the magazine you need a different magazine , a gunsmith or a different bullet . 45 auto is very forgiving in my experience , slow low pressure cartridge see post #113
But you have to be able to chamber it . And it has to engage the rifling when fired . The chamber is the part of the barrel from the hood to the shoulder where the case mouth stops the throat is where the the full size .452 part of the bullet that is in front of the case sets and the ogive of the bullet has to fit in the rifling without preventing the case from fully entering the chamber. The traditional way to do this with most 45 autos is the shoulder of a SWC about a finger nail above the case mouth if that won't feed and you don't want to have your barrel modified ( gun smith reshapes the barrel at the ramp)you need a different bullet. And if a cast bullet even a RN .452 it may have to be seated deeper than what the manual says to chamber. DougGuy can fix the chamber and perhaps the ramp if needed. Or you may be able to buy a drop in barrel that is already set up for SWC / cast bullets.

very good info thx

in the case you describe where the SWC is a fingernail above the case mouth, is the rifling expected to engage that fingernail when chambered? or is that fingernail basically supposed to be the same depth as the throat?

[onelight]

very good info thx

in the case you describe where the SWC is a fingernail above the case mouth, is the rifling expected to engage that fingernail when chambered? or is that fingernail basically supposed to be the same depth as the throat?

No the finger nail is short so it would be just starting into the throat but will not make it to the rifling ideally you could seat it to where the full diameter would be just short of the rifling but unless you have barrel work done I don't think you can make that work. And for most of us it will make no practical difference if we work up our powder charge from the bottom as we should . The fingernail is the length that I see more people have success with as have I . But it depends on the particular bullet and and barrel. If you don't modify your barrel it is going to require you to adapt your ammunition to it. I don't consider that to be a terrible thing unless you are a bullseye shooter or trying to get maximum velocity . But if the shorter OAL you get won't feed from the magazine you may have to find a different style bullet that will chamber and feed like a RN .
On a SWC the length of the full diameter bullet outside the case is what will prevent it from passing the plunk test. Try .451 as has been recommended but I think with your stock chamber you will still need the shoulder of the SWC close to the case mouth . But as I mentioned earlier I have had a few 1911s But do not have near the experience with them others here do . But I currently load for 5 different 45 autos and they all have tight chambers SIG ,HK, CZ , SA XDS and XDE it would be best if I sent them all to DougGuy to fix the chamber but I have several loads that work well in all of them and shoot well enough for my purpose and are as close to 100% reliable as you can get with my hand loads.
You gotta feed them what they like not what you like , if you don't want spend the money and time to customize them for cast.

[onelight]

Taz a member here has posted simple way to give you a starting point for seating depth for auto pistols .
After you size your bullets you can see the shiny mark left by the sizer , your case mouth when seating the bullet is going to land close to the end of that mark. On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.
The sizer mark gives you a spot for the case mouth to land on a round nose also but you will need to see if the ogive of the bullet is touching the rifling enough to prevent the plunk test from working if it does , that will require deeper seating or a DougGuy mod to your barrel. Seat as long as will plunk and fit in your mag . At this point you have to see if the cartridge will feed from the mag in your gun.
And if you deep seat start your powder charge low and work up I load 5 at a time cause I don't like clumsy single shots. When you get worked up to where it locks the slide you have your minimum for that combination in that gun. If you record all this info you won't have to do it again for that gun with that bullet and powder.

[mehavey]

On a swc that is going to be at the forward end of the front shoulder you don't
want your case sticking past the shoulder so the thumbnail of bullet past it.

Is there some reason to not seat as long as reasonable within SAAMI Min/Max
...as long as the barrel geometry/throating continues to "plunk" it?
See Post #107 again)
.....