The question heard around the world

[Metal God]

Long time reloader but new-ish to lead . I don't cast but have recently been buying a lot of lead bullets for shooting handguns ( 9mm , 357 , 45acp ) .

I think I understand the brinell hardness scale but don't have a clue how it translates to #2 alloy , Linotype or cast and I'm sure there are a hundred other terms .

Since I've been starting to load more lead I'm looking at more lead specific data and it seems to be all over the place . How do "I" test hardness ? I smash it with pliers and compare it to a known Brinell hardness sample and say well that's softer then try to load accordingly . I'm thinking that's not the best way to go about it and actually understanding the hardness and how it reacts in the barrel is likely a better way to go about this .

Example of my confusion

Right now I want to load a new to me 9mm 115gr lead hollow point which appears to be very soft . I don't remember where I bought it and transferred it to a separate container because they just came in a bag . I'd upload a image but this sight does not allow from third party like image shack it appears .

Anyways My Lyman cast bullet manual for the 120gr bullet ( closet they have to what I'm using . Says 2.9gr to 4.4gr of W-231 . However the Hodgdon website gives me 4.3 to 4.8 . Now I understand manuals will have different starts and stops but a full grain+ or 25% start difference in a 3 or 4gr load sure seems like a lot ? I see this with different lead data all over the place but when I ask on other forums there's nothing real specific as to why . I get anything from the softer lead has smaller charges to avoid leading to I never get leading no matter how fast I push my bullets . It's all about the fit and seal of the bullet to the barrel .

I Have soft lead I could swage my barrels with and I also have that casting stuff ( forget the name ) that I could melt down and cast a section of my bore/s . I don't however have the best tools to then measure the results , pretty much just some cheep calipers . I do have mics but find it very hard to measure inside the lands or get consistent readings period .

I know there's a lot there to unpack but let's just leave it there for now and ask

1) Is there a reference chart that shows the conversion of what each alloy is on the birnell chart and how that relates to how to load that type of bullet ?

2) Where would you guys start and stop your loads using that 9mm example above ( I want them as fast as I can get them using that powder ) I'm thinking 3.4 , 3.7 , 4.0 , 4.2 , 4.4

3) feel free to pick out any part of this post and explain further or correct in any way

Thanks MG

[Walks]

WoW,

Go to Glen E. Fryxell's articles on the LASC website.

He explains the relationship of The Brinell scale to various alloys available to us.

And a whole bunch more

[kevin c]

This is what Walks is talking about. Fryxell's articles are in the first clickable link on the page, bracketed the the "new!" signs.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Actually, it's worth reading just about everything on the LASC site (twice, according to the wiser heads here).

[Metal God]

Thanks guys , but I had already found that along with others . I'm not finding the answers to my questions , likely because I don't know enough about this to ask the right question/s or the correct wording to get the correct search results .

I guess I'll be doing a lot of reading and in the mean time I'll load up those 9mm bullets in the increments I posted earlier .

[Metal God]

Thought I should add that I have ZERO intention on actually casting bullets . I am buying lead bullets from places like X-treme , Missouri etc . I am not and will not be casting any bullets . I just need general info on lead bullets .

Why is the data so different and does the hardness play a roll in that difference ? If so why ?

[sqlbullet]

TL,DR; For pistol rounds hardness is not that important, nor is lead bullet specific load data. Reduce data for the right bullet weight 10% and work up using a chronograph, and expect velocities to be higher than jacketed bullets. Stop if you reach the max velocity for that bullet weight/load, or if you have issues with leading.

First off, welcome to the forum.

Second, you are not alone. I think all of us went through this same basic process when we came into the world of cast bullets, whether or not we cast them ourselves.

Third, let me walk through your questions as best I can.

I know of no chart that relates BHN to load data. Richard Lee has a chapter about this subject in Modern Reloading. Not everyone agrees with his conclusions and I know that I personally have exceeded his guidelines regularly without having issues that affected me. It is the closest I know of to a guide, but even then, it does not relate to load data directly, but rather to max pressure. His hypothesis on the subject is a reason for his 1 grain velocity and pressure factor values; to allow you to measure your lead BHN and then tailor the load to that hardness.

While I have and use lead specific loading manuals and highly recommend Lyman #4 and/or #3, I would suggest that as with any other reloading endeavor, velocity and max charge for bullet weight should be your guide. I have no concerns using jacketed bullet data with lead bullets. I reduce 10% and work up, and I expect velocities to be a bit higher with lead than jacketed bullets. This sometimes means I will hit max listed velocity before I reach the max charge. The reason for this is lead bullets that fit offer a better seal of the bore than jacketed bullets. Better seal means less blow by and higher pressures from a given charge of powder. And, of course, higher pressures mean more velocity.

Data publishers will stop working up data for a variety of reasons. A given publisher may have experienced leading or accuracy issues that caused them to stop working up. Since we are so much closer to the working tolerance of lead than copper in loading, those issues may or may not apply to you, and may or may not have been BHN related.

Fit is king as you say. As a general rule in an auto-loading handgun a properly fit and lubed bullet will not lead. Most leading issues can be traced back to lack of proper fit. 9mm in particular can have this issue due to the bullet base getting swaged down as a part of the loading process. Lee factory crimp dies, which I love for jacketed rounds, can be especially detrimental to bullet size due to the way the compress the case.

When you move to revolvers, most leading issues still relate to fit, but additional variables come into play such as cylinder throat size, forcing cone condition and size, and the size of the gap to name a few.

There are limits to this philosophy of course. Rifle cartridges introduce pressures and velocities that significantly reduce margin of error for effective ammo when using lead bullets. However, you are not loading for rifle...yet.

Good luck and safe shooting!

[Petrol & Powder]

Metal God, you wrote, "......I'm not finding the answers to my questions.....". I think you're asking the wrong questions.

Or to put it more politely - you want certain answers and you're not getting them.


Go back and read Glen Fryxell's "From ingot to target" and instead of trying to make that information fit what you want to fit - accept it as accurate (because it is correct),

So to address your questions.
1) Is there a reference chart that shows the conversion of what each alloy is on the birnell chart and how that relates to how to load that type of bullet ? - YES that chart exists in Fryxell's articles

2) Where would you guys start and stop your loads using that 9mm example above ( I want them as fast as I can get them using that powder ) I'm thinking 3.4 , 3.7 , 4.0 , 4.2 , 4.4 - If you have an approximate velocity range, Fryxell answers that question

3) feel free to pick out any part of this post and explain further or correct in any way - Sorry to be blunt but the answers you seek have already been provided to you.

[RogerDat]

BHN isn't about lead it is a scale for hardness. Lead can be measured. Different alloys of lead, tin, and antimony yield different hardness. One can measure the BHN of many things. Tools exist for measuring this. Lee makes one for bullets as does Cabintree. There are tools to measure it for all sorts of materials in quality control labs. Or pocket tools for measuring paint hardness in the field.

There is a sticky on hardness with art pencils here in the Lead and Alloys forum. Approach takes advantage of pencil lead in art pencil hardness has a standard so the H2 and H1 and all the other designations of pencil will be of a known hardness. Allowing one to use pencil to test by determining which pencil is the last to not cut and the first to cut the sample.

The bullet itself matters in loads. If Lyman manual is for a Lyman #2 bullet and the Hodgdon manaul is for similar weight but jacketed (or different alloy) then the loads would be different. Jacketed can tolerate more velocity/pressure. Plus the actual bullet design (how much it impinges into case) can impact the pressure that builds up. Pressure can increase in odd ways. More pressure will increase a powders burn rate. Some powders are very sensitive to this. Others less so. A less sensitive powder can have more variation than a more sensitive one due to bullet differences.

Worth mentioning you can use load data from a little heavier bullet to work you load up from the bottom, not safe to use lighter bullet data to work up with a heavier weight bullet.

Commercial common bullets are often Hardball alloy with a BHN of around 16 (2/6 Sn/Sb) Lyman #2 (5/5 Sn/Sb) is about the same hardness at 15 BHN but more expensive due to higher tin percentage. Casts very nice however due to all that tin. Commercial uses less tin and more antimony to get a bullet hard enough for transport without denting for a lower cost alloy. So BHN can be achieved by different alloys. Tin adds a little hardness but makes the lead flow better at lower temperatures and adds malleability, Antimony adds a lot of hardness but tends toward making the alloy brittle. Hunting bullet so hard that it shatters into pieces on bone is ineffective.

Hollow point bullets for same caliber and weight might be 5.5% tin and lead and loaded toward a moderate velocity. The same mold making bullets for plinking might be 1.5% tin and 1.5% antimony to be hard enough with less expensive ingredients. That by the way would be 50/50 mix of COWW's (clip on wheel weights) and Plain soft lead. Plus 1.5% tin. The softer hollow point hunting bullet will expand and not break into fragments on bone. The other bullet is cheaper and won't lead while still casting well due to the 1.5% tin content.

One can test for hardness or just use the guides people have authored that tell the approximate BHN of different alloys. I don't do a lot of hardness testing (at this time) I use the test of the lead alloy content to determine hard enough for specific uses.

• Plain Lead BHN ~6 suitable for muzzle loaders
• COWW/Plain + 1.5% Sn BHN ~ 10.4 good revolver alloy
• Range lead BHN ~ 10 lowers if you add tin. adding COWW brings it up. Also good revolver alloy
• 20:1 lead/tin BHN ~ 10 good revolver alloy at moderate velocity
• COWW/tin 1.5% BHN ~ 11.8 magnum pistol or for rifle use
• 3/3 Sn/Antimony BHN ~ 12.2 is good for up to around 2k fps. Common standard for 30 caliber rifle.
• Hardball 2/6 Sn/Sb BHN ~ 16 can be used widely but may be too hard for mild loads. Won't expand to fit barrel.
• Lyman #2 5/5 Sn/Sb BHN ~ 15 super to cast with and good to higher velocities expensive to make or buy.

Now one can achieve the exact same BHN from different alloys. Price and availability can impact what one decides to cast with. Also alloy effects weight. Tin and antimony weigh less than lead. So a bullet cast using 50/50 COWW/Plain + 1.5 Sn alloy will have a different weight than one from same mold cast using hardball. The first has about 3% of the lead replaced by alloy, the hardball has 8% of the lead replaced.

Friend of mine his grandfather liked 6% tin and 1% antimony alloy for target bullets. Pretty pricey but I guess it casts like a dream. Maybe consistency of the cast was his goal.

Oh yeah then one has to consider what temperature does the alloy melt need to be to cast with it. Hotter casts smaller as I recall due to more shrinkage with some debate on how much it matters. Also bullet has to shrink enough to drop from mold as it cools. Alloys shrink differently. Not a huge amount but can be a factor that effects casting pace.

The suggested reading allows one to ask better more specific questions. This little brain dump should just wet your appetite for what there is to learn that might matter to you.

Oh Lyman #2 bullet alloy is commonly used as the alloy for bullets tested to provide load data for Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading manual. Go figure. Name recognition has value. It doesn't mean everyone uses that alloy to make that bullet in order to use that load data. It does mean people have to do some informed trial and error to see what works best given their use. One fellows 32 acp isn't going to behave the exact same as another fellows.

And I don't water drop to harden the bullet as it comes out of the mold so I didn't comment on that. I understand from what I have read that one can hit BHN of around 22 from dropping COWW alloy bullets from mold to bucket of ice water. I have gotten what I need from Lyman #2 and powder coating so haven't tried water dropping.

[Burnt Fingers]

In my opinion the problem isn't finding commercial cast boolits that are hard enough...it's finding them soft enough.

Commercial cast bullets are almost always too hard for pistols. They are designed to survive shipping without damage. Likewise the lubes used are much too hard.

I'd suggest getting some Hi-Tek coated bullets as this solves the lube problem.

I run a BHN 11 alloy in almost all my boolits. The exceptions are for my 327 Federal Mag and some boolits in my 300 Blackout.

[nagantguy]

In my opinion the problem isn't finding commercial cast boolits that are hard enough...it's finding them soft enough.

Commercial cast bullets are almost always too hard for pistols. They are designed to survive shipping without damage. Likewise the lubes used are much too hard.

I'd suggest getting some Hi-Tek coated bullets as this solves the lube problem.

I run a BHN 11 alloy in almost all my boolits. The exceptions are for my 327 Federal Mag and some boolits in my 300 Blackout.

This has also been my experience; to hard of lead and to hard of lube, it’s what started my casting journey- also with fit being king, I now have infinite control over size hardness and lube choices. The OP doesn’t plan on casting but is still seeking knowledge- may variables will be outside his control. Find a brand of factory cast that doesn’t lead and gives accuracy and velocity you seek or want or at least can live with and buy lots of them. That’s what I tried and had thousands of commercial cast boolits to add to my first few pots of lead.
One memorable experience was with some .430 commercial cast boolits- the green “lube” in the lube groove took way longer to melt than the lead itself and stunk like a car fire. The similar profile mold I got was making pretty and usable boolits that fit and were much more accurate right off the bat and that was years before powder coating.

[Metal God]

Or to put it more politely - you want certain answers and you're not getting them

Correct , I understand what you are getting at and yes I don't want to work at getting the answer , I just want the answer . That's not to say I wont work at it , I just come to forums to ask people that already know the answer/s . I , like most know how google and youtube work . If I wanted to do all the leg work with no help from others there would be zero reason to join these boards . I have 10k+ posts on other web reloading forums and not once have I just posted a link and said go figure it out . I'm big on pictures and detailed explanations of my opinions .

Fit is king as you say. As a general rule in an auto-loading handgun a properly fit and lubed bullet will not lead. Most leading issues can be traced back to lack of proper fit. 9mm in particular can have this issue due to the bullet base getting swaged down as a part of the loading process. Lee factory crimp dies, which I love for jacketed rounds, can be especially detrimental to bullet size due to the way the compress the case.

Thanks for your complete post but this was important to me . Not so much that I didn't know but more of a reminder . As others have stated the factory bullets I've been ordering are pretty hard ( mostly in the BHN 16 to 18 aera ) I don't worry to much about my mouth bell or FCD with those . How ever this 115gr HP I have , I now know are very soft and thanks to your reminder I went ahead and belled my mouths a bit more for these as I loaded them this morning . Although I don't know yet but believe that was a good idea because I bell my cases very little and sometimes shave small amounts of plating of my Berry's bullets so these soft lead bullets wouldn't have had a chance at my current setting . Sure I would have figured it out with in a round or three but it's always nice to be ahead of the curve .

When you move to revolvers, most leading issues still relate to fit, but additional variables come into play such as cylinder throat size, forcing cone condition and size, and the size of the gap to name a few.

I slugged my GP-100 and that was hard to get the correct measurements and where I came up with the fact I don't have the right tools or the right understanding on how to do it .

@ petrol & powder , Thanks for the post , lots of good info there and thank you to all that have posted it's been very helpful .

MG

[Taterhead]

If the OP will not venture into casting, spending time getting into the weeds won't yield much utility. It just won't matter much.

Recommend buying some Hi-Tek coated bullets from a reputable manufacturer in the profile and (especially important) appropriate diameter. Use a cross reference of load data as a guide and do the workups until results are satisfactory.

A deep dive into understanding and optimizing the hardness of ternary alloys isn't going to gain much.

Many of the commercial outfits use hardball alloy. Coated wirh Hi-Tek, they run well for a diversity of purposes.

[fredj338]

You can & will get leading pushing soft leadbullets hard. It isnt so much vel but pressures. Why you can see leading with faster powders at the same vel as slower powders, higher pressures with faster powders.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Metal God,
Welcome to the forum.

Since you aren't interested in casting your own, I would recommend sticking with the hard alloy commercial bullets (16 to 18 BHN), as they can be loaded just like jacketed bullets...that's one of the reasons they sell them.

The reason you haven't been able to get a simple answer to your question, is because there is no simple answer. There are just too many other unmentioned variables involved. 100 people could ask the question you asked, and there will likely be a different correct answer for each of those 100 people. That is why our members gave you a link to a resource for you to research/read...instead of what you are looking for (a couple images and a paragraph) for a reply.

That is also why you've found published Data from different sources to be somewhat different from each other. To best understand those differences, you need to get into the weeds to understand why they came up with the differences. The weeds include, test gun/barrel length, seating depth, alloy hardness, ect...

I can offer you a short answer with your soft HP bullets. Find load data that will give you 15K to 20K PSI. Anything above that will likely cause problems, or maybe not...but start there and work up, until you get the desired result.
Good Luck.

[Metal God]

Ok thanks I'll keep in mind the pressure limitations . I have some pretty soft Speer 45acp bullets and some Missouri BHN 11 45acp bullets . With 45 I think the pressure issue will not be a problem but looking at 9mm data seems to indicate I may have a harder time with that cartridge .

Is there a pressure curve that is better for the softer lead meaning slower vs faster burn rates . I have Titegroup and HS-6 I use in 9mm amoung others but those are my ES as far as burn rates . Would one be better to use then the other in 9mm and soft lead ? I know I've heard hot (Temp wise ) burning powders like Titegroup "may" cause more leading ??????? Couple that with the high pressure 9mm round and ?????

[Burnt Fingers]

My standard alloy is BHN 11-12. I use it in almost everything. Even in 44 Mag, 357 Mag, and 300 Blackout.

As long as the fit is good a BHN 11-12 alloy will fit 90% of your shooting needs.

[dverna]

Metal God,
For years, I did not have the time or desire to cast. I shot commercial cast bullets. 9mm, 38, .45 ACP. I purchased about 100,000. I would buy 500-1000 and try them, it they shot well I stocked up on what worked.

I have never experienced the "challenges" others have experienced with excessive leading. My 9mm bullets are 122 gr made off Magma molds (which is want most commercial casters will be using) sized .356-.357 and hard commercial lube. Alloy is 96-6-2. I may just be lucky. BTW my load is 4.1 gr of HP38 (W213) which is .2 gr below max. I do not shoot the 9mm competitively...just for paper and plinking and Self defense practice.

If you want to KISS, find a supplier you want to do business with. The 9mm is the most problematic caliber. Order the bullet you want but in two diameters. Sized .356 and .357. Shoot them and see if they lead and check accuracy. Most suppliers will give a 10-15% discount for orders of 10k, and will allow you to mix calibers to get the discount. Done. I have bought the same bullets year after year and never had a quality issue with alloy or lube from suppliers like LaserCast, or Dardas (no longer in business IIRC). Other good operations out there. I went with Dardas due to quality and location, They were within driving distance and saved quite a bit on shipping.

If your preferred supplier bullets to not work you try another supplier.

The other option is to buy unlubed bullets and size and lube yourself. NOT recommended as you will be "guided" all over the map with different lubes and sizing options...not KISS.

Hi-Tek and Powder Coated bullets are not likely to lead but are a bit more costly. If you shoot a 1-2000 a year the way to go IMHO. I cannot recall any issues with either coating but I have not used them.

I have never had a commercial .358 bullet lead in a .38, or a .452 bullet lead in the .45ACP. Both are low pressure rounds and more forgiving than the 9mm. .357 Mag may be different.

BTW, I fully understand your desire not to cast. You do not have to know how to build an engine to drive a car. We are the exception on this site. Many love to cast and reload. I detest casting and put up with reloading because I am too cheap to buy factory. I love to shoot and casting/reloading are a means to an end. Some shoot to reload and cast.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ok thanks I'll keep in mind the pressure limitations . I have some pretty soft Speer 45acp bullets and some Missouri BHN 11 45acp bullets . With 45 I think the pressure issue will not be a problem but looking at 9mm data seems to indicate I may have a harder time with that cartridge .

Is there a pressure curve that is better for the softer lead meaning slower vs faster burn rates . I have Titegroup and HS-6 I use in 9mm amoung others but those are my ES as far as burn rates . Would one be better to use then the other in 9mm and soft lead ? I know I've heard hot (Temp wise ) burning powders like Titegroup "may" cause more leading ??????? Couple that with the high pressure 9mm round and ?????

If I were you, I would avoid soft lead in the 9mm, but if you must, use the HS-6.

I use Unique for most of my 9mm. I am also planning a future experiment using Blue Dot in 9mm with a heavy boolit.

[41mag]

When I started out in earnest with cast I was only concerned with getting something that would work with my 454 Cas. So I was looking at pressure issues from the get go, even running a gas checked solid.

Of course like everything else I do, I dove off the cliff head first. Next thing I knew I had half a dozen molds, and was looking for an alloy I could use to run HPs out of my 357, 41, and 44 magnums. It took me about 6-8 months of blending and testing small batches of alloy to get those up and working properly without leading up barrels and such. Then came the 9mm and 45ACP.

Bottom line is as mentioned above, pressures and size are the biggest issues here. I can easily run a 10BHN alloy HP out of my 9mm at 1100 fps, "IF" I use a slower burning powder. My favorite load uses around 7gr of AA7 with both a 115 or 124gr bullet. However, if I load with Bullseye, or similar faster powders I have to stay down in the 950'ish FPS range or so to keep from streaking my barrel with lead.

More or less its a balancing act and also like mentioned my 5gr load of XYZ powder may be horrible in your barrel, or with your particular bullet. My best suggestion would be to pick the slower burning powder and work up with it. It might use a smidgen more than the fast one, but will usually be more forgiving.

Hope this helps some, I know it probably doesn't answer your questions in detail but with cast there are variables that just aren't usually associated with jacketed. There, you more or less pick a powder and load for velocity and accuracy, with cast you have to expand on a bit more. That said though, once you hit something that works, run with it.

[Metal God]

Thanks guys , I used the 231 for this first try but will load some up with the HS-6 maybe try the WSF I have . I think there's only a 3 or 4 tenths spread from min to max using the HS-6 . I generally don't like it when my window is so small so the WSF or even CFE pistol might be better .