What Am I Doing Wrong???

[montana_charlie]

FIRST QUESTION: After I pour the bullet, how long do I need to wait - if any - before I can drop the bullet out of the mould. Do I need to hold the mould a few seconds, or do I just drop the bullet out instantly?

Actually, you need to wait until the sprue has solidified. That indicates the rest of the bullet is also (probably) solid.
But, go ahead and experiment. Drop a few out as soon as you can get the lead into the cavity. It won't take many for you to get an idea of what the requirements are...

SECOND QUESTION: Would it help my bullets if I immediately dropped them in a pan of water, like this gent suggested?

He also said this would make the bullets "harder", and I don't really want to do that. I'm using 20:1, and I would not want the bullets any harder than that.

Dropping bullets into water might be seen as a 'cushion' that prevents damage, but 'water dropping' is normally used to harden bullets.
However, it only works on alloys that contain antimony...which your 20:1 doesn't have.

You actually don't want bullets any harder than what you get from 20:1...and some paper patchers even use pure lead.
CM

[Bret4207]

With 650 gr boolits your mold becomes a massive heat sink. I didn't realize your boolit was that big. I think you'll have to play with the temp to find the frosty/non-frosty spot. As for your tolerance- 5 grains +/- would be the place to start. On the wait time- watch the sprue puddle. You'll see it change color/texture as it solidifies. With a boolit that big I'd wait 2-3 seconds after the sprue solidifies before opening the mould. Also make sure you're pouring a VERY generous sprue puddle, that could be your weight variance right there. If you're going to try water dropping use something like a 5 gal bucket, not a "pan". Those big boolits hold a lot of heat and will dent on the bottom if they aren't cool enough.

[willdixon]

Thank you very much Bret4207.

You say "play with the temperature to find the frosty/non-frosty spot".

But everybody here says their bullets are frosty also, and they tell me not to worry about frosty.

You say go for 5 grains. My first two firing sessions were with bullets which were within .5 gn, and I was usually firing 1MOA at 100 and at 200 yards. And I don't mind doing that little bit of extra work at all, if the .5gn parameter is necessary to keep up my 1MOA patterns.

However, I'm about to load a new batch of cartridges, and I'm thinking of going up to a 1gn parameter. But I definitely would not want to take a chance on loosening up my standards any more than that. I've got nothing better to do than cast bullets - so I see no reason to not keep them within 1/2 to 1gn for my loads.

Yes, I can tell of course when the sprue solidifies, but I've been holding the mould for some five seconds or so after that before dumping the bullet out. But I began thinking holding it this long might contribute to the frostiness. And I thought perhaps if I'd get it out of the mould more quickly, it might create smoother bullets.

Now remember, I could not care less about frosty - except that everything I've ever read on the matter says that frosty means the lead is too hot. And I want to do it properly.

Yes, I pour so much the sprue puddle usually runs a tad over the side of the mould.

Yes, your suggestion of dumping them in a bucket sounds better, of course, but do I want to dump them in water at all? I definitely do not want to make them harder. That would reduce the obduration, which I would not wish to do.

Again, thank you so very much for your advice.

[montana_charlie]

But everybody here says their bullets are frosty also, and they tell me not to worry about frosty.

Not everybody, Will Dixon.
But you are not hearing much from the other side of that question because nobody wants to start a fight...again.
CM

[willdixon]

Not everybody, Will Dixon.
But you are not hearing much from the other side of that question because nobody wants to start a fight...again.
CM

Hi Charlie -

Are the bullets which you cast shiney and not frosted? Bright and shiney when the drop out of the mould?

No fair spoofing now, Charlie, I'll come by your place and see for myself - ha ha!

[montana_charlie]

Hi Charlie -

Are the bullets which you cast shiney and not frosted? Bright and shiney when the drop out of the mould?

No fair spoofing now, Charlie, I'll come by your place and see for myself - ha ha!

Ok...since you say no spoofin', I'll admit that I have occasionally kept a few that had some haziness. But when it appeared, I also took action to cool things down.
It's possible that some of those (lightly frosted ones) got culled during 'visual inspection' (and mine is merciless), but any that did get loaded up were used for fouling shots.

Any bullet that actually gets fired into a group (that will be measured and recorded) must have started out mirror-bright, and an exact replica of the mould cavity. It will also weigh within 2 tenths of the others fired into that same group.

I don't actually do any 'plinking', so I have no need to keep second-rate bullets.
CM

[willdixon]

Thank you very much, Charlie -

I appreciate the shout. . . .

In other words, the majority of your cast bullets are "mirror bright" - right out of the mould.

How about you other gents out there?

Are most of your bullets mirror bright, right out of the mould?

And if so - PLEASE - like I asked when I opened this thread, days ago, "WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?"

Forgive me, I thought the consensus was that everyone - or virtually everyone - cast somewhat frosty bullets.

Please forgive me - I'm not being sarcastic here - I really would like to do the best I can, and I'm too new and dumb to know how to do that.

Thank you very much!

[montana_charlie]

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?"

Forgive me, I thought the consensus was that everyone - or virtually everyone - cast somewhat frosty bullets.

I really shouldn't have said anything to get you all stirred up...just when you were getting some decent performance from your rifle.
Are you sure you want to get into the 'finer details' of casting...instead of working through the many different shades of paper patching?

In case nobody else wants to pipe up, I'll give you a place to start.

First, assuming that a certain set of necessities have been satisfied, (no wrinkles, full fillout, good weight, etc,) a shiney lead/tin bullet indicates it was cast under ideal conditions.

That doesn't mean that a frosty bullet is a bad bullet. Maybe it has some antimony in it. Perhaps a temperature that produces frost is the only thing that can make a particular mould produce a well-filled bullet. If it shoots well, it may not matter if it was produced under ideal conditions.

But if one believes that ideal conditions are most likely to produce the best bullets, he will do his best to find out what those conditions are...in relation to the mould he is using.

Frost (not counting antimony or other 'ingredients') is a product of heat.
It can be caused by the alloy being hotter than necessary, and stays molten too long. Or it can be caused by a mould which has become so hot it delays the 'freezing' of the bullet's surface.

I have a suspicion about some bullets (shiney ones) freezing from the surface inward, as opposed to others that freeze in the middle first, then progress outward. I get this idea (theory?) from looking at spilled lead drops.
When lead falls on a cold surface, the bottom is always shiney when you peel it up to look at it. It even happens when the lead falls on wood.

Therefore, I expect to find a relationship between alloy temp and mould temp where the lead remains molten just long enough to fill the cavity. Then, the mould has cooled enough to freeze the surface first, closely followed by the alloy temperature dropping enough to allow the middle to solidify.

Yes, you do want to see the sprue stay molten for a short period after the cavity is full. That indicates the likelyhood of good fillout. But, if the sprue stays liquid for too long, you will probably see frost.

So, Will, set your alloy temperature at some 'starting point' like 750 degrees.
Heat your mould very well and begin casting at a comfortable rhythm.

Since the mould started out (probably) hotter than necessary, I expect you'll see frost. Continue at the comfortable speed until it (the mould) has a chance to settle to a lower temperature.
If the frost does not disappear, slow down the rhythm a little. Try pausing longer before cutting the sprue, or wait a little before filling the mould, (or both) to add some time to the cycle.

If you continue to slow down until it becomes ridiculous, lower the alloy temperature to 700 degrees, and start over.

You should eventually find the optimum condition for that mould, with that alloy.

It's not unusual for some of the better-known BPCR shooters to say that 650 degrees is their preferred alloy temperature...just so you know.
A temp lower than 650 is probably a poor choice.

If you don't have a lead thermometer, you can get by with trial and error. Many have. But the instrument does take out much of the guesswork.

You should also do a forum search for information on 'fluxing' the alloy. You will need it...
CM

[freedom475]

I have read a lot of good suggestions here.

I use to smoke moulds....not anymore. I clean the mould up as much as possible with Ascetone and Q-tips being careful not to leave any fibers behind. I then repeat the Ascetone wipe on the cavs. I have much better looking boolits after doing this compared to smoking them or using "drop-out" and my boolits fall right out of steel and aluminum moulds.

Second.. Bull Plate just makes a mould work great. You use such a tiny bit of this stuff a bottle would be a life supply if you can keep from spilling it

I have noticed boolits coming out more shiney if I cut the spur and waterdrop just as the spur hardens. I cast usually 400-500 grain boolits.

One of the things I found with the Lee 500gr. boolit mould is that a relaxed hold will produce heavier boolits than a "white-knuckle" hold on the handles. I'll bet you will find that the weight difference won't show up as a problem at ranges of 200yrds or less, even 5 grs. or more from a boolit that big moving that slow, it takes quite a bit to alter the path of a boolit that heavy. It will show up at 800 and a 1000 though. Fluxing is a major player in the weight vaiable once you have your method down consistent to keep out the air pockets.

WW seem to come out a little frosty especially if you slip in a few zincs. oops....... but a 20:1 mix of pure lead should be shiny. When I cast muzzleloader boolits with pure lead it doesn't matter how hot I get things they still come out shiney. While casting on a real cold night with the pot in the open window of the cabin Checked my temp one time and because the spurs were taken forever to harden the pot was over 900 and the balls looked fine and shiney.

[willdixon]

Hi Charles -

At the outset, let me emphasize this: the gentlemen who have kindly responded to my "What Am I Doing Wrong?" thread have wholly convinced me my frosty bullets are not defective bullets. So I don't care about frost any longer. It's just that, since you said yours come out shining like mirrors, I thought I'd attempt to see what sort of voodoo you're practicing out there.

But, chronologically going down your post, no, at 77, I no longer get all "stirred up" over trivia like frosty bullets. Today only the supreme court and certain presidential candidates stir me up!

No, I've got paper patching down pat, as is witnessed by the fact my loads are averaging 1 MOA at 100 and 200 yards, and, from the first load I fired through this rifle two weeks ago, they have always been 2 MOA or better - er, ah, with frosty bullets that is - ha ha.

No, I'm using Fey certified lead/tin, with no antimony.

I am absolutely positive the frost on my bullets is not symptomatic of my lead being too hot. I've experimented, repeatedly, by allowing my lead to get cooler and cooler, while continuing to cast, and even when the lead commences to solidify in the pot, the bullets are still dropping out frosty.

I believe it's my mould. I've eliminated all other possibilities.

No, my mould has not started out "hotter than necessary", because all I've had to heat it up with has been a hand-held heating blower, similar to a hair dryer, except used for stretching the fabric on a fabric-covered airplanes. Hotter than a hair dryer, but not very hot.

Yes, like I mentioned, I commenced fluxing with candle wax when I was 7, casting my wee lead soldiers. And now, 70 years later, I'm using a blue wax flux bought from Midway. And I constantly keep the dross out of the pot.

ANYWAY, the guys on this Forum have given me some great ideas on how to better cast my bullets, and I'm going to start applying their wisdom later today, when I do some more casting.

By the way - duhhhhhhhh - what is a "stickie" and why do we spell the word "boolits"?

Thank you for your kind interest, Charles.

[willdixon]

Hi freedom475 -

Thank you for your help.

Forgive my stupidity, what is "Bull Plate"?

Yes, I want to try this water dropping thing, but will it not make my 20:1 bullets too hard? Because of the size of my bore and bullet diameter, I would not want to decrease my current obduration rate.

I've been pretty much using what you call a "white knuckle" hold on my mould handles; I'll experiment with that. And I'll flux more often.

What make of flux to you prefer, please?

It's humiliatin' bein' as soopid as I am, but I don't know what this phrase means, "WW seem to come out a little frosty especially if you slip in a few zincs. oops......." What is "WW", please? And what is the "...slip in a few zincs." thing? Sorry!

Thank you very much again, freedom475!

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

I recently posted on here the fact that I keep my bullets within one-half grain weight of each other for my loads. And two or three well-meaning guys suggested that was overkill and that I ought to relax my standards and not be so careful. One gentleman even said what I was doing was impossible "in a real world".

But, to tell the truth, since accuracy is supposedly our main objective in the preparation of our loads, I was a tiny bit surprised they would tell me not to be so accurate - particularly when they also know I'm consistantly shooting 1 to 2 MOA at 100 and 200 yards.

Yes, before you remind me, I know: shooting 1 MOA at 100 and 200 yards is pretty meaningless. To prove the merit of your load, you need to be firing out at 300 yards or more. But my current range does not go out any further than 200. However, as I mentioned before, a friend and I will be setting up a 1000-yard "range" on his property, next month, and I'll be able to expand my shooting horizons considerably. He's going to build the berm or backstop, and I'm going to have a carpenter come in and construct the roofed-over shooting station.

BUT TO THE POINT, last night I came across a section in Mike Venturino's book, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, in which he quotes some national BPCR champions on the parameters to which they adhere in the weight of their bullets. And I thought we might all learn from these real experts:

STEVE BROOKS keeps his bullets within one tenth of a grain of each other!

STEVE GARBE makes certain his bullets are all within one half grain.

DAVE GRUHLER insists his bullets be within a parameter of two tenths of a grain!

BUTCH ULSHER makes certain all of his bullets are within one-half grain of each
other.

There isn't enough room here to tell you the championships these dudes have won, but they're some of the finest shooters in the nation.

I had been planning on relaxing my standard to accept bullets within 1 grain of each other, but - now that I've re-read these - I'm going back to my 1/2 grain!

Cheers!

[felix]

Half grain is still too much for 22s. ... felix

[leftiye]

MC, Not trying to be a jerk, or a smart a$$, But it sounds impossible to me that lead could freeze from the middle out? There has to be somewhere for the heat to go. If the middle of a boolit did freeze first, wouldn't the hot lead around it remelt the frozen part?

I like what you are saying about it being a relationship between alloy temp, and mold temp. I think that is the key. I may be wrrrrr (- you know), but I believe that slow freezing of both the surface and then the rest of the boolit is conducive to good fillout, and reducing the occurrence of voids. To that end I use a mold heater, and cast a cooler alloy in a hotter mold.

Will, lead tin alloys do not heat treat nor water drop harden. Antimony is necessary, and arsenic helps greatly in heat treating. If you're shooting black powder, you could shoot pure lead at that velocity, and they'd all be shiny! Lead needs at least tin added before it will frost. Sounds like that mold stays hotter than some. That's a good thang in my "book". So long as it casts well, I'd cast with as cool of lead as possible (unless other defects were to start occurring). .1 grain? That's what is called anal-compulsive!

[willdixon]

What kind of mould heater, please, leftiye

[R.M.]

willdixon
Your standards are admirable.
Can I suggest you try a test of say 5 grain variance for accuracy, and see just how much your groups open up, if any. I think it might be an eye-opener for all of us.

[willdixon]

Ha ha ha - RM - I've got even a MUCH better idea:

No offense, please, but why don't you test my .5gn parameter for your bullets?

Your groups can only close up tighter and be better groups, while you want me to experiment with making my groups worse?

The worst I've ever fired through this rifle is 1 1/2 MOA, and most of my last groups have been better than 1 MOA.

Let's see - hmmmmmmm - what would I gain by lowering my standards? Duhhhhh.

You would have only improvement to gain.

After you....

[montana_charlie]

Will,
I hope you forgive me if I smile when reading comments like those quoted below.

I've got paper patching down pat, as is witnessed by the fact my loads are averaging 1 MOA at 100 and 200 yards, and, from the first load I fired through this rifle two weeks ago, they have always been 2 MOA or better

I recently posted on here the fact that I keep my bullets within one-half grain weight of each other for my loads. And two or three well-meaning guys suggested that was overkill and that I ought to relax my standards...
I was a tiny bit surprised they would tell me not to be so accurate - particularly when they also know I'm consistantly shooting 1 to 2 MOA at 100 and 200 yards.

As you are aware, I have followed your odessey (ever since you returned the Armi Sport rifle) and have passed a few words along to you at various stages along the way...primarily as answers to questions that you asked me.
Having paid close attention to your progress, I think (with a little research) I could accurately count the number of shots you have taken with your Quigley.

While it's true that you have seen satisfying results at each shooting session, I must smile at how quickly you have come to claim a degree of 'consistency' that you feel you can bank on.

Perhaps your initial results will prove to be typical for your rifle and load, and maybe paper patching (a voodoo I haven't tried) will help to assure that.
But few of the shooters you name in the list of experts (those who shoot the closely weight-matched bullets) would speak with your confidence...after two sessions and 17 rounds.

As an example of how 'consistency' can disappear for no known reason, I submit my current 100 yard 'best group' target. It has 11 bullet holes, and the black bull is 4.4 inches wide.

It is actually a single 10-round group, fired on two different days, using a single 'set' of identically matched 45/90 cartridges.

- The single, out to the upper right, is a fouling shot to condition the barrel prior to firing the first half of the group. (I used the blow tube for fouling control.) A single fouler was also fired for the second half of the test, but not into this target.
Bore was totally clean prior to each fouling shot.

- The 'ragged hole' measures 5/8" high by 5/8" wide and contains five shots.
- The 'shotgun pattern' in the black was fired three days later, using the last five of that ten-round 'set', under almost identical conditions.

I did crank the elevation down for the 'second half' to have it print lower...but I expected to be comparing two similar groupings.

The lower 'pattern' would still score 46/50, and discounting the highest hole would make a 2 MOA group. But it's still 'ugly' when compared to the load's actual potential.

I can't explain the 'inconsistency', but it is an example of how black powder can make you proud one day...and embarrass you the next.
CM

[44man]

Water dropping will NOT harden boolits unless the alloy contains antimony along with tin. You can do it for convenience.
Lead or lead with tin does NOT frost from heat. You need antimony for frost. If the mold insides are not shiny the boolit will look frosty to match. A lead, tin, antimony alloy cast hot and frosty can be rubbed shiny with a rag. Too hot and fill out is bad.
Metal hardens from the outside in.
If you have lead buildup under the plate or on top of the mold you are cutting too soon. Wait until the lead hardens.
Strike a kitchen match and blow it out right away. Use it to rub lead off the plate and mold.

[R.M.]

Let's see - hmmmmmmm - what would I gain by lowering my standards? Duhhhhh

Well Gee, I might try it if I had your gun. I'm a pistol and muzzle-loader shooter. I don't shoot your game, but I would be willing to experiment as I suggested, if it ment that I didn't have to recycle as many of my cast boolits. (read more time shooting and less time casting/sorting etc.)
Obviously my standards aren't as high as yours, and to me that's OK. If I was match shooting, I probably would hold my weights to .5gr, but I'd still want to see where the point of diminishing return is as far as weight variation is concerned.