What Am I Doing Wrong???

[docone31]

Enjoy the shootin, A Sharps is a great shooter.
200yds is very satisfying.

[willdixon]

Thanks fishawk and docone -

No, like I said, frosted didn't mean anything to me either, except I had read that frosted meant your lead was too hot. Obviously that was at least partially false.

And yes, weight means a lot to me also.

When I worked up my first loads, I kept the bullets all within .5gn of each other. But with these huge bullets, that meant I was having to re-cast an awful percentage of them. So this time I'm moving up to a 1gn limit for the bullets. And I imagine even that's probably closer than a lot of shooters do. But - not knowing what I'm doing - I have to take advantage of everything I can think of which might make my groups smaller. And it surely worked with the first sighting in - almost a 1 MOA at 100 yards.

Thank you, gentlemen, very much.

[montana_charlie]

Will,
If you found yourself standing around with a collection of the top-ranked BPCR shooters, there are some 'universal' things you would discover about their bullets.

All are made from a lead/tin alloy...with only a couple of shooters being able to spell 'w/w'.
All were cast with a dipper...from pots that don't have holes in the bottom.
Every bullet looks like it was 'chromed' after being cast.

I'm not saying that a bullet will perform badly if it doesn't meet those standards, but those shooters believe it's true.

The books on casting have always said that 'frost' is a sign of excess temperature. But, those same books recommended using 'wax' to flux alloys and lubricate moulds...so their 'gospel' is open to some doubt.
What they did not do was tell new casters about the two different kinds of 'frost'.
There is the slight 'haziness' that takes off the shine, and there is that 'textured surface' that resembles hard velvet.

The latter is a sign that the temperature is much higher than it should be, while haze just shows that (1) things are hotter than 'optimum' for lead/tin...or (2) the alloy is such that a 'hot melt' is required to get free of wrinkles.

Wrinkles start out being an indication that the mould is unclean. Afterward, they tell you about how your chosen temperature (of melt and of mould) agrees with your alloy. A lead/tin alloy never needs the amount of heat that causes frosting...unless a high heat is required to keep alloy flowing reliably through a bottom spout.

Frosting, itself, may have no harmful effect on a bullet, but examine closely the pictures that people post. Those which are uniformly frosted (the 'hazy' variety of frost) rarely have those ultra-sharp corners on bases and driving bands. Just as when examining the edge on a knife, if light reflects from the edge (or a bullet's 'corner') it isn't sharp.

I have come to believe the slight rounding of frosted corners is because the normal shrinkage of a bullet (as it solidifies) is somewhat amplified in the very 'corners' of a cavity.
I think that if the alloy must come down 'a long way' to reach the solid state, corner shrinkage will be more noticeable than in an alloy which started out less hot.

On your paper patched bullets, the base is the only corner you have to look at. And, that corner gets covered over with all of that extra paper you fold over the base. So, maybe an ultra-sharp base corner is not a requirement for that kind of bullet.

As you can see, I am not giving you any 'advice' here. Just making some 'observations'...so as not to start any arguments.
CM

[floodgate]

44Man:

I can't agree; I've always used my Lyman ladles to stir, scrape and pour. But, just before pouring, I push the ladle down, spout-first, into the pot until lead wells up through the pour-hole and spills over the side, flushing the ladle spout clean; and as I lift it out, Ilet a little lead flow out the spout to see if I've got full flow. This sequence is now just automatic with me, and seems to work very well. But, each caster develops his (or her) own technique, so what works for me, may not with you or someone else - to each his own!

floodgate

[44man]

You kind of go the extra mile so it might work for you. I don't like any lead buildup on the nose because I don't want any leaks between it and the sprue plate. As soon as it starts to leak I wipe the nose clean.
I haven't found anything to coat it with that will keep it clean either. Anything you put on will rub off by plate contact.
Those that pour from a distance above the mold won't have the problem but that is not a good way to cast heavy boolits.

[willdixon]

Okay, guys, I'll answer these great new posts in just a second, but I want to see if I can figure out how to post a picture here first.

And this is a picture of the bullets I cast yesterday. And every number represents ONE TENTH OF A GRAIN, and I'll only be loading those bullets which weigh between 646.5gn to 647.5 gn.

Let's see if I can post this picture:

[MtGun44]

I think that your tolerance is way too tight in the real world.

If these are 500 grain boolits, a +/- 5 grains would be 1%, which is
often very difficult to obtain in any real world process.

If you were OK with 1/10th of 1 percent (which is REALLY crazy
picky in a lot of fields of endeavor) you would allow +/- 0.5 grains.

I'd toss the serious outliers in the pot, but seems like you ought
to try for +/- about 1 or 2 grains and see how they shoot compared
to a selcted few that are all within 0.1 grain. My bet is that other
variables are much more important than this fine of a weight
standard.

Your quality control manager is going to drive the production manager
to drink.

And +1 for frosty boolits makes no difference. If you like shiny, wipe
off the lube with a scrap of burlap bag (gunny sack in parts of the
nation).

Bill

[willdixon]

Hi Bill -

Thank you very much for your advice.

Ha ha - you mean my bullet weight paramater is too perfect?

I've got nothing better to do, Bill, so I don't mind spending the extra time seeking perfection in my loads. I know I'll never achieve perfection, but trying to do so is all the fun to me. Why loosen up the paramaters and be sloppy when I don't have to and don't want to?

Before today, I had only fired a total of six rounds through this rifle. And these were the only BPCR rounds I had ever fired.

But - as of my shoot today -I'm already averaging 1 MOA at 100 yards and 1 MOA at 200 yards. So it would seem to me my weight parameter is not a total waste of time after all?

As I say, I went firing today, and averaged that 1 MOA, and I plan to post pictures of my targets tomorrow, if I can.

I'm new and very dumb at all this PP BPCR shooting, Bill, so all I know to do is to try to create loads as perfectly as I can, by such frivolities as weighing and measuring the cases, weighing each powder load, keeping the bullets at a tightly consistant weight; yes, even indexing the bullets in the cases, and indexing the cartridges in the chamber, etc.

You said "the other variables are more important that bullet weights." Perhaps, but I am as frenetic about those variables as I am the bullet weight.

"Drive the production manager to drink"? Yes, I've been known to enjoy a small glass of red wine from time to time - when the loading and shooting are all completed for the day.

And, finally, no, it is not that I "like" shiney bullets. On the contrary, I had read that this frosted condition was bad, and it meant the lead was too hot. I don't give a hoot about the frost, if it is not a defect. And I certainly would not polish a bullet, just to send it down range.

Anyway, I do thank you for your thoughts, and I consider your "real world" thing a very flattering compliment.

Best wishes.

[willdixon]

Hi Charlie -

Thank you very much for your sage thoughts.

And yes, I now realize my "frost" is normal, and not the bad thing I had read it is. And I do indeed fully appreciate the hundreds of years of wisdom which these gentlemen have shared with me in this regard. Thank you very much, guys!

Yes, the "corner" of my bullets, the bottom corner, is "razor"sharp.

And today, as I told you by email earlier, I fired an average of 1 MOA at 100 yards and 200 yards, so the frost obviously isn't any defect. At 200 yards, two bullets even went through one large hole!

Yes, I use wax to coagulate the dross on the surface of the melted lead, just as I did at age six when I cast my little lead soldiers. It really does work, but I don't know anything about using it to flux alloys and lubricate moulds.

No, my wrinkles in bullets takes place when I very first pour lead into a mould which is not hot enough. As soon as the mould heats up a bit, from the hot lead, the wrinkles go away. I clean my mould each time I use it.

Later today, I hope to post pictures of my three 100 and 200 yard targets from today. I reckon nothing is as pretty to us as pictures of 1 MOA targets!

Thank you again, Charlie!

[willdixon]

This is just a tad off thread, gentlemen, but I REALLY would like your help on this!

I fired eight rounds today (all the loaded ones I had), and they were all brand new Starline 50/90 cases. But Starline makes their 50/90 cases 0.004" shorter than the stock 2 1/2" for 50/90 brass. So this case was short.

I had no crimp, I load the paper patch bullets by finger, and they were all seated down in only 3/16". The Swiss 1.5F powder was only compressed 0.085".

These loads are not forced into the chamber; they slide in very easily, and I have loaded some of them in and out of the chamber, and there are never any marks on the bullet nor on the paper. This was not binding anywhere in the chamber.

But look how this shell came out:



What do you think could have caused this?

Thank you very much!

[montana_charlie]

My first guess is that the brass was annealed (prior to firing) and it was allowed to get too hot...and too soft.
CM

[willdixon]

Yes, Charlie, I annealed it because Starline 50/90 brass not chamber without full sizing, and I could not full size it without annealing.

But it could not have gotten too hot. When I anneal I hold the cartridge base in my fingers so they CANNOT get too hot.

[montana_charlie]

But it could not have gotten too hot. When I anneal I hold the cartridge base in my fingers so they CANNOT get too hot.

Do you hold the case vertically, or horizontally?
(that can have a big effect on how fast the head heats up)

Do you spin the case while it is heating?
(your pictured case seems to have stretched more on one side)

What 'color' do you watch for at the case mouth?
(an 'easily seen' red probably means the brass is 'dead soft')

If the problem is caused by 'too soft' brass, trimming and shooting should eventually re-harden the mouths.
But the walls may get pretty thin...
CM

[willdixon]

Charlie, I hold the case vertically, and point the flame of the Propane torch upward in order that the heat goes upward, so the case cannot get too much heat.

Yes, I turn the case around 360 degrees, fairly rapidly.

I do not allow the case to get red at all.

In short, Charlie, my annealing has no causal relationship with this phenomenon, but I'm definitely not going to risk using this case again.

And NONE of the cases of any of the other 13 loads I've fired have stretched at all. This seems very significant to me.

MAYBE THIS ONE CASE WAS DEFECTIVE FROM THE FACTORY?

The most likely thought I've received from one expert is that the dry paper patch and inside of the mouth are TOO DRY, and when the bullet obdurates considerably, it pulls the case with it as it commences to go out the bore. And that expert suggested perhaps using a powdered lubricant on the inside of the case mouth, which he says has been a bench-rest technique for years.

But I don't know what sort of dry lubricant to use.

Any suggestions?

Does anybody use the "strawberry jam" MPZ Assembly Lube (by TORCO) on their paper patches? It would seem to me to be the most perfect of all possible paper patch lubricants.

I used to build and race modified stock cars and racing engines, and when a racing engine is built today, the better builders smear this MPZ Assembly Lube on all internal bearing surfaces In this fashion all of the bearing surfaces are protected from gauling or scuffing when the engine is first started and run. There will be no friction on the bearing surfaces. And they use this particular non-melting, non-patroleum compound because it is the most perfect lubricant they can obtain.

Thank you!

[montana_charlie]

And NONE of the cases of any of the other 13 loads I've fired have stretched at all. This seems very significant to me.

The most likely thought I've received from one expert is that the dry paper patch and inside of the mouth are TOO DRY, and when the bullet obdurates considerably, it pulls the case with it as it commences to go out the bore. And that expert suggested perhaps using a powdered lubricant on the inside of the case mouth, which he says has been a bench-rest technique for years.

But I don't know what sort of dry lubricant to use.

I won't speak to the likelihood of that, but..
Perhaps (before the water totally dries) you could dip the bullet base to a depth of 3/16" in powdered graphite (the same depth your bullets are seated to). The moisture would make the particles adhere to the patch.

Did your advisor know that your other 12 cases did not display this condition?
CM

[willdixon]

Charlie, by "water totally drying", I assume you think I'm wetting my paper patches. But I have not been. I've been wrapping them on dry, because Randolph Wright recommended this in his Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets. But I've found a number of experts in disagreement with him on several points. And plan onwetting the patches on my next set of loads.

Yes, my friend knew the other loads did not display this phenomenon.

Thank you.

If you wish to chat with me more easily, just email me at oldmanriver@alltel.net

[leftiye]

Try rolling them wet, letting them dry completely, then lube with something, Lee mule snot is convenient here: and then size them to groove diameter plus .001".

In a single shot rifle, there is no reason to size the case after firing unless it has expanded to the point that it has become sticky to load or extract in the chamber. Ditto as to crimping - DON'T do it at all! If your cases will accept a boolit and hold it, cut and run (call it good)! Maybe (if your case necks open up too much when fired to reliably hold a boolit) use a NECK sizer die opened up to size just enough to hold the patched boolit. It's called "thumb" seating. Seat the boolits out to touch the rifling.

Sounds like you are doing most of this already. That case obviously stretched and was driven forward into the freebore of the chamber. Does it show a stretch line back nearer to the case head?

[docone31]

I am not sure I can see how wrapping a patch dry would be an asset. I am just kinda speculating here, and having wrapped patches, I am not sure the loose paper would be much more than extra fluff traveling down the barrel.
I had an hard time visualizing how a wet patch could and would be capable of sizing and "sticking" to the bullet. It does!
Before you try any lube on the patch, please try them wet. I have had such great luck with wet patches. Hopefully, the mold has a concave base so the patch can be tucked into it just like the old days. If not, just twist and when dry, snip off and load.
I may be grossly mistaken, however it looks like the case was crimped. I do not reccomend crimping paper patches.
If that is the case, if, and the patch was done dry, in my mind the paper slid back on the casting. We are talking minute here. If that was the case it is quite likely the paper acted as an hammer on that side. I have seen on the bases of my castings deformation from the tail of the patch. You could see where the excess remaining pounded the base.
I could be all wet here, but to me, that would explain the unbalanced stretching.
With a properly patched boolitt, sized to fit, I am not sure lube is needed at all. In fact, the paper will polish the bore, and make it nice and shiney.
I cannot visualize dry patching and loading in any way that would be at all easy. When done wet, the patch stretches and sticks to itself. Upon drying, it is, to me, extremely firmly set. When I load my patches, they just pop in the case and I tighten the neck to hold it.
I never crimp my jacketed loads, and I find loading paper patched boolitts just as easy.
When that patch dies, it is hard as a rock! Even when I go to load my patched boolitts, I do not have to handle them gingerly.
I use a cigarette machine to roll them. I do not know if the caliber you are using will fit into the opening. You will have to do them on a board. Bugler used to make a roller that had an handle and you pulled the handle over the humpback. That might work for you. If I remember correctly, the opening was quite large.
To sum up, I think the dry wrapped patch hammered the edge of the crimp. Either that or your case is well inside the rifling.

[willdixon]

leftiye -

Forgive me for not answering sooner - this forum does not notify me when someone posts something for me - I don't know why - so I did not know any of these posts were here.

You would definitely not want a paper patch bullet to be groove plus
.001. I do not size after firing, and I never crimp. I seat the bullets with my fingers. I do seat the bullets out to touch the rifling. No, there is no other stretch mark.

docone31 - Many PP guys thing the wet patches cause the patch to stick to the bullet and cause fliers. But my real expert friends tell me that is not the case with their wet patches. They tell me after the patches have dried, they can twist the bullet around inside the patch. Of course, if the patch is wound around the bullet in the same direction as the twist, the patch is far more likely to cause a flier. But I wrap in the opposite direction.

No I don't have a concave base, and prefer my flat one to concave.

No, as I said, the case was not crimped. I don't crimp.

No, my patch did not slide; I've examined many of my shot patches, and they are perfect. None of them slid.

I don't lube my patches.

Dry patching is very simple for me. No I don't use a board, I do them in my fingers.

No, my dry patch did not hammer anything, and there was no crimp for it to hammer. I don't crimp. And no, my case was well short of the rifling.

But thank you for your suggestions.

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

One of your experts told me he casts his bullets, knocks off the sprue, and drops the bullet in a pan of water immediately.

After casting, I've been holding the mould for perhaps ten seconds or so - making certain the bullet was hardened - and then putting them out on my bench. But this may not be the way to do it. I don't know.

FIRST QUESTION: After I pour the bullet, how long do I need to wait - if any - before I can drop the bullet out of the mould. Do I need to hold the mould a few seconds, or do I just drop the bullet out instantly?

SECOND QUESTION: Would it help my bullets if I immediately dropped them in a pan of water, like this gent suggested?

He also said this would make the bullets "harder", and I don't really want to do that. I'm using 20:1, and I would not want the bullets any harder than that.

I would appreciate your help very much.