Garand Screwup-The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[AggiePharmD]

Alright folks today was probably the worst day of my fledgling cast boolit career. I decided to try cast in the Garand. After tossing around some PMs with a fellow member, decided to try the following:

HXP brass, COMMERCIAL 31299 boolits weighing about 210 gr each sized at 0.311" with that hard red lube that seems to be so popular with commercial boolits (hardness unknown), IMR 4895 charges with a 3/4 grain dacron filler and WLR primers (the old white orange and red box if it matters). I loaded 8 rounds increasing by 1 grain from 30-35 grains. All fired at 25 yards. My rifle was a rack grade Winny from the CMP. The outdoor temp was 35 degrees at time of firing. If you know anything about TX weather this is down right friggin' cold. My grandmother used to say its "colder than a well diggers a$$" and today I'd agree!!!

Now for the Clint Eastwood breakdown of just want went down:

The Good:

The op-rod functioned right from the start, however at 30 gr the brass landed everywhere but one single spot. This got better as the charge increased. My best groups were with 32 grains and this was the turning point as they spread our from there.

The Bad:

30, 31 and 32 gr charges were spewing a cloud out the front end but this stopped at 33 gr. Groups opened up starting at 33 gr and were pretty big by 35 grains, however this might have had something to do with the ugly to follow! When I was done the action was sticking.

THE UGLY:

I got the rifle home and notice that there was no lube star on the muzzle and there was lead at the end of the barrel! I opened up the gas system and freaked out. There was a solid layer of lead surrounding the port in the gas cylinder and the gas hole in the barrel was plugged. The piston on the op-rod was caked with lead as well as so was the gas lock screw. I cleaned and scraped and cleaned and scraped for about 3 hours and still am not 100 percent sure I got all the lead out of the barrel. I used lead-away cloth, various cleaners, copper chore boy and dental pics to scrape the gas cylinder crust off. I finally called it done when there were no little specks of lead on my patches and they were mostly clean. The gas system is lead free.

Take away:

I really don't know what to do? You might have noticed that I never stated what my barrel slugged at because I didn't do it to begin with but after I cleaned everything up. I slugged and it mic'ed out at 0.309". I find it hard to believe boolit diameter lead to all the lead build up present. I am leaning toward bad lube or the cold weather effecting the lube in a negative fashion? Boolits being too soft? Don't know.

Conclusion/next step:

I'm really hesitant to try this again but I really want to do so. I working on a Garand build using a 12/41 Springfield receiver, Wilson barrel and maple stock set that I wanted to shoot cast with exclusively, however, if this is how things will play out I won't be shooting lead out of this rifle at all! If I try again, it will be with my own 311299s cast with air-cooled COWW, TAC X and Ben's liquid lube! I figure if a little lube will do a little good then a bunch will be even better! I will try 32.5 gr of 4895 with the dacron hoping to get good groups and clean burn.

Anybody that wants to offer advice or even flame me would be great. I've shot these same boolits out other rifles with no leading issues that I am aware of to date.

Needless to say today was a big disappointment for me. Hope your day was better.

[RogerDat]

Well as Thomas Edison said about the 99 things he tried before carbon for a lamp element..... discovered what didn't work which was progress toward finding what did.

[hydraulic]

You didn't mention if the bullets were gas checked.

[AggiePharmD]

You didn't mention if the bullets were gas checked.

Very good observation. Yes they were gas checked.

[hydraulic]

My guess would be the commercial bullets you used. Probably too hard, and the lube they use is hard, too. Do a search for the Bob S load; it works well in my M-l. I've never had any luck with 4895, but several of the guys around here use it. My bullet is the Lee 200 gr. cast of straight wheelweights, Emmets lube over 42 grs. of 4831 with a tuft of cotton (the Bob S load).

[Scharfschuetze]

Aggie,

It sounds like you were doing everything right. I load for a couple different M1 Garands but I have never had the issue you describe so let me ramble on a bit with what I do for good groups and reliability.

First, I use a non-canister grade of 4895 that is really closer to 4064 so I won't list the charge, but my charge weights are similar to yours for reliability and accuracy. I don't use a filler, but I don't disparage its use either.

Second, I use the same boolit as you are using, the 311299 and often the Lyman 311334. They are cast hard and are similar to Linotype and sized to .311 for .308" barrels. Here is where I differ from you with the boolits. I use the old NRA 50/50 Alox formula of lubricant. I've used if for over 40 years and it works so well that I've never tried anything else. My muzzles all show a lube star using this lube and bores remain sans leading when my alloy, sizing and velocity factors are correct.

Third, I use GI LC cases (probably very close to your Greek GI cases) and CCI primers.

My chronographed velocities are right at 1,800 fps. With those heavy boolits, performance to way out yonder is pretty good and will compete with many bolt 30/06 rifles. I've not noted any leading with the above components, depending on the M1 used, they eject to about the same area, although I'm not sure, given the vagaries of ejector springs, if that's important or not.

My only suggestion or question is: Are you expanding your case necks with a factory expanding plug designed for .308 jacketed bullets? I use an expander size of .308" which gives me an internal neck diameter of about .307" after spring back. If you are using a factory expanding plug, perhaps your neck tension is too tight and may be further sizing down your boolit when your seat it. Not much of a solution I know, but something you might look into.

Obvious things to look at: 1. Boolit alloy 2. Lubricant 3. Internal diameter of sized and belled neck

Here are Lyman 311299 boolits on the left and Lyman 311334 boolits on the right set up for M1 Garands and 1903 Springfields at .311" with the Alox lube and gas checks.

[leadman]

If the lube is the typical hard junk that many commercial casters use because it stays on during shipping this is your main problem. Remove that lube and smear some of the lubes from your post on by hand. Paint thinner is one method to get that lube off.
Even though many shooters crimp for a semi auto I have not found it necessary but do take the flare out of the case mouth. I use a Lyman M die to expand the entire length of the neck. The M die makes starting the boolit in the case very easy with the shelf it makes in the case mouth.
If you cast your own boolits you may want to at least water quench your COWW. I have found boolits softer than about 15 BHN can be difficult to get to shoot with any accuracy.
You might also need to do a little barrel work if this rack grade barrel is rough, especially around the gas hole. I have improved the accuracy of several mil-surp guns with a few fire lapping boolits down the bore with 600 grit lapping compound on them. I follow up a few boolits with J B Bore Paste on them. After fire lapping clean the barrel and gas system completely.

[vzerone]

Buy a mold, cast your own of good known alloy, buy or make your own lube. I feel it's the commercial alloy. Far as lube goes, to a degree, just about anything will lube including ear wax!!!

[Hickok]

Like Leadman said let the boolits soak over night in paint thinner, mineral spirits, acetone, etc, whatever you want to call it.

Or use some Lee LLA or better yet make up some Recluse lube and tumble lube the commercial cast bullets, right over the red crayon lube, and give it a try. I have shot Recluse loob up to around 1800 fps with no leading.

Tumble loobing commercial cast boolits has worked for me several times. I got to shoot them instead of melting them down.

[frkelly74]

I too will jump on the lube and hardness band wagon. I cast from scrap which tends to be pretty soft and tumble lube with lee liquid alox. I size to .311 and shoot em up. It is a dirty, smokey load but I have not experienced any significant leading in my Garand. I find that Filler tends to keep the bore cleaner and eliminates the vertical stringing that my no filler loads seem to exhibit.

[Maven]

2 more suggestions, Aggie...., (1) put those commercial 31299's in a tray (with something to catch the melted lube) in an oven @ 300 deg. for 1 hr., then turn it off. Remove the CB's and tumble lube with Lar's XLOX or Lee Liquid Alox. (2) Consider annealing the neck & shoulder of the HXP brass. (

[vzerone]

You're not suppose to lube or oil the piston or tube on a Garand or on a M14. You just clean them is all. Find a lube point chart for the Garand on the internet.

[lobogunleather]

Way back in the 1950's the subject of cast bullet loads in the M1 rifle was covered extensively in NRA publications (see Cast Bullets in Rifles, Col. E. Harrison, a compilation of 25 years of experimenting and results).

Bottom line is this: Gas-operated semi-auto rifles bleed expanding gases behind the bullets into a port in the barrel to the gas cylinder, driving the operating rod to cycle the rifle. With cast bullets there will always be some (admittedly a differing amount in each rifle/bullet/load combination) lead transferred into the gas cylinder and operating rod face. The first indications of this will be that the shot patterns start walking across the target. Then, when the rifle is taken down for cleaning after the range session, the owner will come across these deposits of lead as described by the OP. Finally, the harsh cleaning methods required to remove leading deposits from the gas cylinder and op rod face will accelerate wear and tear on these critical parts.

Personally, I stopped using cast bullet loads in my M1 rifles many, many years ago based on the published advice of Col. Harrison and others who investigated and reported on these issues over 50 years ago.

Best regards.

[Maven]

You're not suppose to lube or oil the piston or tube on a Garand or on a M14. You just clean them is all. Find a lube point chart for the Garand on the internet.

Edited my post to reflect this information. Thanks, vz!

[AggiePharmD]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Let me try to address them all in a single post.

Are you expanding your case necks with a factory expanding plug designed for .308 jacketed bullets?

--I am actually using a 0.311" Lyman M-die for my expanding step. I checked a fired case this morning and the same boolit slid in and out fairly easily.

If you cast your own boolits you may want to at least water quench your COWW.

--I have never water quenched any of my boolits, however, the next time a cast some 311299s I will give this a shot and see how it works.

You might also need to do a little barrel work if this rack grade barrel is rough, especially around the gas hole.

--The barrel is by no means pristine and I've heard about using a technique of fire lapping. I honestly would know how to go about doing this so I'll have to read up on it a bit and possibly give it a shot, however, I was hoping that shooting the barrel with well lubed boolits would kind of take are of this for me over time?

Remove that lube and smear some of the lubes from your post on by hand. Paint thinner is one method to get that lube off.
--I've done this before with turpentine as that is what I had on hand and it worked beautifully. I will try swirling my commercial cast in BLL but will probably eventually do this anyhow.

Buy a mold, cast your own of good known alloy, buy or make your own lube.

--I've got an NOE version of the 311299 and have done so, however, I had these commercial boolits handy as mine weren't lubed up yet. Didn't have a top punch for my 45 yet. I do now and have lubed mine with TAC X and then swirled in Ben's Liquid Lube. These will be what I load up next for a second go around. I'm going to start saving my ear was and will drop by my local ENT's office and see if they would swap me donuts for ear wax.

I cast from scrap which tends to be pretty soft and tumble lube with lee liquid alox. I size to .311 and shoot em up. It is a dirty, smokey load but I have not experienced any significant leading in my Garand.

--I plan on testing some of my current COWW unquenched to before quenching my next batch.

Consider annealing the neck & shoulder of the HXP brass.

--I've never tried to anneal anything and will need to read up no this technique as I honestly don't remember just what it is intended to do/fix.

Way back in the 1950's the subject of cast bullet loads in the M1 rifle was covered extensively in NRA publications (see Cast Bullets in Rifles, Col. E. Harrison, a compilation of 25 years of experimenting and results).

--I've got a copy of Harrison's "Cast Bullets" I've started reading and will locate the portions about the Garand. I am not however ready to give up on cast in Garands. If I can isolate my issue and prevent serious leading, I don't mind cleaning a bit of the occasional lead as I clean my rifles after each use. To me it would be a small price to pay for the enjoyment of exercising my Garands.

...lead transferred into the gas cylinder and operating rod face. The first indications of this will be that the shot patterns start walking across the target.

--This is exactly what I experienced so I will have to repeat my 33-35 grain test loads before finalizing my load.

Thanks again for all of your input. Once I get a chance to try this all again, I will post the results here again.

[Scharfschuetze]

You're not suppose to lube or oil the piston or tube on a Garand or on a M14. You just clean them is all. Find a lube point chart for the Garand on the internet.

No need to lube the gas cylinder or piston head on an M1. They are made of a virtually impervious stainless steel. M1s had millions of corrosive ammo shot through them and I've never seen one with any sign of rust or corrosion on these two components.

--I've got a copy of Harrison's "Cast Bullets" I've started reading and will locate the portions about the Garand. I am not however ready to give up on cast in Garands.

Don't give up! M1s are very cast boolit friendly when you do things right. Nothing new with that. Look at my first post where I outline my M1 technique. Of course it's really no different from most other members here shooting cast in the M1 do.

[AggiePharmD]

Oh I ain't giving up. No way, no how. I'm too hard headed to quit while I'm ahead. I read your post above a couple times and it is all good info. Since I've got the TAC X loaded into my 45 and boolits already lubed up, I'm going to give it a shot so to speak. I may eventually try the lube you mentioned.

I also forgot to add that I'm seating the boolits to just at the top of the upper most driving band and crimping. Not sure if the crimp is necessary but I'd hate for a boolit to slip back into the case and not realize it.

[runfiverun]

hate for that crimp to rip metal off the boolit as it passes by.

[Stoats]

Aah, you're crimping!

Pull a bullet from a case and measure it. If the crimp is sizing it down, there's a big part of the problem! (although I'll also pile on the lube and hardness bus too)

[Hickok]

Aggie, annealing your case necks is really easy. Most people way "over due" the annealing using too much heat for too long. A quick and easy method (if you don't have a lot of cases to do) is simply use a propane torch, hold the rim of the case in your fingers and put the neck area of the case in the propane flame, rotating or turning so you get even heat around the neck. When the case starts to get warm and uncomfortable in your fingers, simply drop in water or drop on something and let air cool. Only takes about 4 to 5 seconds per case.

There are a lot of more mechanical ways to anneal cases, but this is simple and easy, just learn real quick not to burn your fingers!.

Annealing makes your case necks soft and less brittle. It helps prevent split case necks, and makes the neck more "flexible". Over time the neck area gets hard and brittle from shooting and resizing.