Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[FergusonTO35]

44man, if you can shoot the big guns and are confident with them then by all means do so. I won't disparage anyone's choice of protection as long as they return the favor. I will agree with you that better than nothing is about the nicest thing you can say about most of the craptastic factory ammo available for the .25 Auto, .38 S&W, and even many .38 Special varieties. These are all watered down big time so they won't blow up granny's lemon squeezer or questionable pre-'68 import.

Now, good reloads or factory ammo of known quality and performance can significantly change the equation. No, it doesn't transform the mousegun into a manstopper just as a big bore doesn't guarantee one shot stops 100% of the time. However good ammo with consistent velocity that is up where it is supposed to be will have likely have enough penetration to kill or seriously injure the bad guy if the defender can place the round where it needs to go. Which, he/she will have a better chance of doing as they are confident and practiced with their "small" gun, instead of one that is beyond their ability.

[44man]

It is DISTANCE to the BG with a rifle that would worry me in a situation like Orlando. There are poor people in the way too. To even hit him with a bee sting is scary.
True, better loads can be had for the .38 but why not a .357 instead?
NCIS guys NEVER miss and run the gun for an hour without going empty.

[DerekP Houston]

It is DISTANCE to the BG with a rifle that would worry me in a situation like Orlando. There are poor people in the way too. To even hit him with a bee sting is scary.
True, better loads can be had for the .38 but why not a .357 instead?
NCIS guys NEVER miss and run the gun for an hour without going empty.

Indeed, a handgun will never match a rifle in that situation. Understand the limitations of the platform and cartridge and use it as designed. I would MUCH rather have a 357 or 45 with me, but with my big belly and small frame, they just don't conceal well at all. I feel just fine carrying my self-loaded 38 +p 158 SWC-HP but others may not, to each his own. If it happens to be a longer than 10 yrds engagement, my feet are faster than my hands.

[pmer]

I thought of this thread while at the museum in Glendive Montana yesterday. In a case they had Smith model 10 wiith what looked like a 200 grain rnfp boolit. An accompanying police report said the boolit was recovered from the abdomen of the victim and it took a couple days for him to pass. Alcohol was involved. I bet if the hit was higher it would have been done quicker.

[44man]

Exactly, you need to hit the creep in the head at 50 yards and remember you are slippery with a pile of brown in your shorts when someone starts to spray with an AR. To be tough takes a special person. But I still contend if the SOB knows there are guns inside, he will not go in so no shots are needed anyway. They hunt those in gun free zones.
The poor people were gay but are they denied to protect themselves? The club thought so but they are just people. Who cares what they live like, none deserve to die.
To put up a sign that says "Guns Welcome" instead of the red one with a line across a gun will save more then the police can handle. I would sue the club from stopping my second amendment rights.
I hate the sign that says "This is a gun free zone."
Blacks that abide by the law die by the thousands, killed by black criminals but they are denied protection from liberals that run the city. DC is a place you don't want to enter, Detroit--WOW. tightest restrictions ever and more death. NY is a cesspool.
If Billary gets in you need to hire a guard at your side even on the porcelain fixture. Hillary is protected every second so will she pay for us? With whose money?

[robertbank]

Tazman several pages back you mentioned CFE Pistol powder. Have you done any testing? Oddly enough the powder is available up here while other more popular powders remain elusive at best. Clays is now made up here yet has not graced a shelf in Canada for over two years. Looking for an alternative powder for 9MM and 38spl for Cast and jacketed bullets. CFE has some promise if the rags are correct. With the new to me Model 10 arriving in tomorrows mail I an going to be at the range for the next couple of weeks solid.

Thanks

Bob

[cainttype]

"Manstopper bullet for the 38 special" was a thread started by the OP referencing a magazine article about a 38 bullet designed similarly to an unconventional 45 cal British design. That began a discussion with members detailing other projectile designs for the 38, several of which were also somewhat unconventional.
Within a week the conversation had morphed to include various test loads and load techniques. Within a month it included firearm types, opinions on preparation, and mindset with a focus on the use of deadly force.

The thread has now morphed into something unrecognizable from the original intent... but that is not uncommon, unexpected, or necessarily a bad thing.
Anyone interested in the original subject matter would be well-advised to read the first few pages of this thread.

[FergusonTO35]

Friend, any and every thread on a gun forum, no matter the original topic, has the potential to mutate into which caliber is best, Glock vs. 1911, auto vs. revolver, AR vs. AK, and many other things that gun people argue endlessly over.

[Outpost75]

The Mods here seem to tolerate alot of off topic posts, mis-directed threads and silly nonsense.

It isn't for me to criticise, but just an observation. I suppose that is what makes this site what it is, for better or worse.

Thread drift is like mission creep... a characteristic of management style.

I best shut up now.

[44man]

The Mods here seem to tolerate alot of off topic posts, mis-directed threads and silly nonsense.

It isn't for me to criticise, but just an observation. I suppose that is what makes this site what it is, for better or worse.

Thread drift is like mission creep... a characteristic of management style.

I best shut up now.

IT IS WHY HERE IS BEST. Everything always leads to another that fits. We all understand and if you can't spell or speak English, we love you too. To be too strict is not good. We should talk like friends with a beer.

[Outpost75]

IT IS WHY HERE IS BEST. Everything always leads to another that fits. We all understand and if you can't spell or speak English, we love you too. To be too strict is not good. We should talk like friends with a beer.

I respect your opinion, but find the dialogue here petty,and tiresome at times. That is when I turn off the computer. Cheers!

[44man]

Maybe but I have learned all is important and even little things are to learn from. So I also respect what you feel. Are we friends? Or do we bicker about what sock is for the left foot?

[9.3X62AL]

I respect your opinion, but find the dialogue here petty,and tiresome at times. That is when I turn off the computer. Cheers!

Hear, hear!

[Outpost75]

Maybe but I have learned all is important and even little things are to learn from. So I also respect what you feel. Are we friends? Or do we bicker about what sock is for the left foot?

Friends can have a spirited discussion on subjects in which they may not agree, but are willing to hear a contrary opinion in hope of learning something. I find that an aged single malt is more productive to such discourse than beer, but if we should meet the drinks are on me.

[9.3X62AL]

My old job authorized roughly 300 makes/models of sidearm in 6 calibers, practically all were personal purchases since the addition of self-loaders in 1987. For a 25-words-or-less load recommendation, I have always favored "As much caliber as the user can safely manage and hit well with". My EDCs are in 357 Magnum--40 S&W--and 45 ACP.

[DerekP Houston]

Friends can have a spirited discussion on subjects in which they may not agree, but are willing to hear a contrary opinion in hope of learning something. I find that an aged single malt is more productive to such discourse than beer, but if we should meet the drinks are on me.

Some of the best stuff Ive read on here has been off topic =). Obviously the sock with the L on it goes on the left foot

Back on topic, I wouldn't count on a single round of *anything* as a manstopper regardless of the caliber. While I can shoot a 40-45 just fine, my follow up shots are much slower and it is harder for me to conceal carry. After a few sessions of krav maga and watching youtube disarm techniques I decided on a 357 hammerless revolver as my back up gun as it is the hardest to stop me from firing. No slide to jam, no hammer to grab, and it shoots through my clothing if needed. As it is DAO I consider it a belly gun/last resort the same as carrying a 9mm or a 380 bersa, this is not a aiming gun but a point and shoot and get the f out of there. I rarely fire full power rounds from it for practice though, as it is brutal on my hands.

[tazman]

Tazman several pages back you mentioned CFE Pistol powder. Have you done any testing? Oddly enough the powder is available up here while other more popular powders remain elusive at best. Clays is now made up here yet has not graced a shelf in Canada for over two years. Looking for an alternative powder for 9MM and 38spl for Cast and jacketed bullets. CFE has some promise if the rags are correct. With the new to me Model 10 arriving in tomorrows mail I an going to be at the range for the next couple of weeks solid.

Thanks

Bob

I have done a lot of shooting/testing with CFE pistol in 38 special and 9mm. I really like it with cast boolits in these cartridges.
I can give you load data and velocities if you like. That said, my data mirrors the data on the Hodgdon data site. My results and chrono tests come out the same as theirs did a few months ago before they re-tested and increased their fps.
Since the 358432 has the same amount of boolit inside the case as a standard semi-wadcutter, I use full power loads data for a 158 grain SWC in my 38 special cases. Accuracy is outstanding.
With either the 358432 or NOE 360-150-swc I get 875fps with 4.5 grains of CFE pistol and 950fps with 5.0 grains of CFE pistol. This was shot from a 6" model 14 and a 4" model 15. Both guns chronoed within 5 fps.
I haven't chronoed my new 8 3/8 inch barrelled 686 yet or my model 37 so I don't know what it does in longer or shorter barrel.

[robertbank]

Hey, like a few others on this thread I owe you a bunch and will try those loads as soon as our group sends in a powder order. How does it compare to Clays for being clean burning in the 38spl. At any given IDPA match I will run 140rds through the gun and clean burning helps a bunch. As an aside all I need to make is >110ish PF in the 38spl. and 140ish in the 9MM. You ever wonder up this way coffee is always on and there a plate at the table.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Hey, like a few others on this thread I owe you a bunch and will try those loads as soon as our group sends in a powder order. How does it compare to Clays for being clean burning in the 38spl. At any given IDPA match I will run 140rds through the gun and clean burning helps a bunch. As an aside all I need to make is >110ish PF in the 38spl. and 140ish in the 9MM. You ever wonder up this way coffee is always on and there a plate at the table.

Take Care

Bob

I can't compare it to Clays since I have never used any. It is much cleaner than Bullseye and nearly as clean as WST. I often shoot up to 300 rounds for an afternoon's practice.
I use up to 5.0 grains with a 125 grain lead boolit in my 9mm Beretta 92fs and am getting right at 1150fps. According to the online calculator this equates to a PF of 143.
Any 950fps load with a 147 grain boolit will just barely get you to 140 PF. Hodgdon's site says you can do that with 4.2 grains and a jacketed bullet with a 4 inch barrel. I got that with 4.2 of CFE and a cast boolit, but I think I was pushing things a bit. It certainly shot well enough.
These loads are published on the Hodgdon data site except for the 147 grain lead boolit load.
For the 38 special, any wadcutter or SWC weighing 148 grains or more, moving 800fps will get you a PF of 120. That is easily accomplished.

[robertbank]

Thanks again. I have a project ahead of me. CFE was recommended to me sometime ago at the peak of powder shortages. I will pursue now I know it works well enough for cast bullets.

It was over 40C in the back pits today and I nearly got fried. Cools off tomorrow a bit tomorrow so the Model 10 gets a work out for sure.

Take Care

Bob