Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[roadie]

So what do you learn from a fellow who claims he regularly shoots better than the recorded national records set by scoped handguns? What is the truth, what is not and how do you tell the difference? Therein lies the dilemma we face. So much misinformation on the net it is hard to take anyone seriously except to apply your personal life experiences up against what has been said. Then draw your conclusions. Simple application of high school physics eliminates some of what is claimed. Add to that some common sense and an understanding of some of the basic variables that must come together to produce a desired result and you enter the world of reality.

Take Care

Bob

You can learn lots from that fellow, bullet fit, alloys, primers, powder, grip techniques....if you choose to listen and not immediately write it off as BS.

I don't understand why anyone would take anything they see on the internet as gospel, if it interests you, then take whatever info you can get from it and apply it to your shooting. That way, there are no dilemmas to worry about and nobody has to feel the need to call anyone else a liar....or get all upset by what they interpret as outlandish.

cbrick makes a really good point about not admitting defeat before you've even started...if you program yourself to fail, you will. Another fellow has a tagline something like "Prove stuff to yourself"....all good advice.

[geargnasher]

That is why I read and study and practice the concepts I find in threads like this. There is always something new to learn. There is always a way to get better.
In the past several months I have picked up many ideas from this site and hope to continue to do so.

Probably a topic for a new thread, but I'll mention it anyway. If you want to learn how 44man does it, ask him. Ask him about brass, what's the most important thing to pay attention to and do with it. Ask about alloy, and why. Ask him about "looseness" and why it matters. Ask about what qualities to look for in a primer. Ask why he uses Felix lube. Ask why a high-quality cast bullet is potentially more accurate than any jacketed one. Ask about grip, breathing, sight picture, all the things to learn how to practice correctly that got him where he was. He's one of the few who will take the time to tell you all of his discoveries, freely, and will explain exactly why the things he says to do are important so you really understand and can take all that to your loading bench and to the range. Shoot until you have more specific questions, and ask them. Sooner or later you'll realize that the bottom of a Coke can isn't all that small at 100 yards.

A week or so ago I was shooting rifles at my local long range. The owner stopped by as the SO and a couple of us were packing up and winked at us while he made a remark about how it was a shame we were all using fancy rifles to bang steel at a few hundred yards when any old pistol would do. He went up to the benches, drew his 1911, and started clanging 12" steel at the 200 yard berm with it, then said "C'mon guys, you have handguns, don't you?". I pulled out my Kimber and got on the same target in two shots, missing only one more out of eight with Federal American Eagle ball, standing, two-hand hold. (I've done this before, it isn't that difficult with a good trigger). One of the other guys could barely hit the berm, but the last one pulled out a beautiful Model 19 and got three of six with it, again taking a few to find the right rock on the berm for an aim point. That's just some experienced shooters dinking around for fun, and the guy with the revolver said he never shot it past 25 yards and was amazed how little drop there actually was at 200. We all thought it was neat, even the guy who couldn't hit squat with his P220. What's really odd is that I can't always hit the same sized plate at 15 yards, slow fire. Aim small, miss small, I guess.

Gear

[jonp]

That's the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me about these things, almost no one asks how it is possible, only disputes what is claimed because it doesn't fit their paradigm.

Interesting perhaps only to me, but a few years ago I noticed some fellows making some pretty outrageous claims of accuracy and velocity with a certain milsurp, using cast bullets. I decided to find out for myself what I could learn from them and do, so I started asking questions, lots of them. I also got in a lot of fights trying to get the naysayers to shut up long enough for me to learn something, or at least give some scientific reasoning why it couldn't be done. In the end, I learned a lot about people on internet forums and I learned the truth about the outrageous claims. Now if I say what I did I get called a liar and hated, too.

When I first joined, my very first post was a question about leading. Jim was one of the first to respond. He got my attention right off and kept it, and he's helped me directly and indirectly do things with revolvers that I never would have dreamed possible, though not nearly as great as dedicated sixgunners with truly excellent nerves can do. He opened my eyes, and that in itself is priceless, and he has always been willing to help me learn every way he can when I asked. That isn't misplaced "hero worship" on my part, just humble appreciation. Thank you, Jim, and to people like you who I've never seen shoot, but have taught me to think past the middle of the "bell curve" that has been mentioned on this thread and made me a better handloader and shooter for it. I don't care if you really could shoot a hole in a nickel every time at 100 yards or not, you have encouraged me to try, and with what I've learned I've come close enough to that myself to believe you......with bone-stock revolvers, no less.

In the spirit of the thread title, I submit that reality of revolver accuracy is what you as a shooter and handloader are able to make of it, nothing more, nothing less, but that it can be a lot better with many production guns than most of you are willing to even imagine.

Gear

^^^

[tazman]

Probably a topic for a new thread, but I'll mention it anyway. If you want to learn how 44man does it, ask him. Ask him about brass, what's the most important thing to pay attention to and do with it. Ask about alloy, and why. Ask him about "looseness" and why it matters. Ask about what qualities to look for in a primer. Ask why he uses Felix lube. Ask why a high-quality cast bullet is potentially more accurate than any jacketed one. Ask about grip, breathing, sight picture, all the things to learn how to practice correctly that got him where he was. He's one of the few who will take the time to tell you all of his discoveries, freely, and will explain exactly why the things he says to do are important so you really understand and can take all that to your loading bench and to the range. Shoot until you have more specific questions, and ask them. Sooner or later you'll realize that the bottom of a Coke can isn't all that small at 100 yards.

Gear

I have asked him and will again. I don't want to take up all his time. I get knowledge from what he posts and can reason out some of it on my own from the starts he gives. When I have a problem that I can't get past, I will ask him again.
As he said, all you really have to do is to think about what actually happens during the shot and find a remedy for the bad stuff.

[44MAG#1]

Again I ask: Wonder how many of the big name handgun hunters who used revolvers and even single shots use handguns that are 1 MOA accurate? People like JD Jones, Larry Kelly, Lucky Nightingale, Pamela Atwood and others?
The title of this thread said REALITY. The REALITY of today is cost, time, range membership etc..
1. I was making more in 1998, 1999 than I am now. The cost of components were less then than now. So was every thing else, food, electric, water, car insurance, clothes, gasoline, range dues, and if one has children the cost of babysitters if one is starting a family, and you name it.
2. An indoor range close to me is 350 dollars a year and only goes out to 25 yards.
3. Time? A lot of people work two jobs now to make it. Not much time to shoot even if they wanted to be good or to find that special load to make their revolver shoot like most people's rifle.
4 Components: I bought a pound of Varget the other day that was 32 plus tax. Cast bullets are now over the top price wise today for the ones that don't cast.
I cast my own.
Many other things can come into play that makes the REALITY of a lot of testing to get the MOA accuracy, especially in a fussy revolver, very time and cost expensive.
The truth is that a revolver that is a 4 MOA gun will that a lot of game and will astound most revolver shooters at the local range. Especially in the hands of a man that is a good shot from field positions, including offhand.
Now we know that the REALITY of 1 MOA revolvers exist and that the accuracy can be obtained to some degree, although maybe not the vast majority of the groups fired by the gun, it can and has been done.
One now needs to ask: How does this affect the person doing the hunting, plinking.
If one wants to say I am making excuses so be it.
I am just looking at REALITY. And reality at times is an ugly thing.
BTW I am 62.

[fng]

1936 Los Angeles Sheriff Pistol Team Exhibition
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA

[M-Tecs]

1936 Los Angeles Sheriff Pistol Team Exhibition
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA

I have always loved the 10 cav. double row mold at 13:30. That's the only one I have ever seen.

[ole 5 hole group]

I have always loved the 10 cav. double row mold at 13:30. That's the only one I have ever seen.

To keep that mold hot, they must have had a 100 pound pot!!! Took me forever to get a H&G 6 cavity hot enough and keep it hot.

That Thompson instructor could run that puppy extremely well - haven't seen many that can hold them in there like that man could.


That one guy almost got his ear notched. What some did back in the day would land you in jail today - and the line was always hot and sometimes it would sizzle a little.

[M-Tecs]

I have a 1/2 dozen H&G 10's and a couple of 8's along with a 90 pound pot and yes running them sucks a pot down quickly.

[44man]

44mag#1, I think many actually did, Bob Munden could never do what he did with anything less. What you don't see is that it was a business and they would not give out details. Nobody will ever know what Bob shot and sadly he has passed.
I look back at the fantastic shooting done with .22's but you will never see it again--WHY? Because our ammo today just plain can't do it. Not a thing wrong with most guns. I used to shoot open sight groups of 3/4" at 100 with my Marlin Mounty and head shot every squirrel. Plain old WW High Speed HP's. Try that now. Ever hear a crack, then poop and many that will not even go off. My range is full of unfired WW ammo from friends. You can spend a lot of money building a .22 but what do you shoot?
Hard to admit that a $2500 revolver is only as good as what you feed it. Pain is from guys that do it and fail. From every site about shooting, the most resistance is from those that spent too much. They need to justify the money.
If you want to see death, let me tell Carol I need a $3000 revolver or I can't kill deer.
I am always here so ask anything. Only when you improve counts.

[tazman]

I am always here so ask anything. Only when you improve counts.

Ok, here is my question. Actually 2

For your revolver.
What process do you use to select your brass to use for long range accuracy?
What is the process you use to prepare cases for loading up to the point just before putting powder in and seating a boolit? Details that cover why would be appreciated.

[M-Tecs]

Todays 22 rimfire target ammunition is the finest ever manufactured. A good ideal what is capable of here http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-...mparison-test/

[robertbank]

You can learn lots from that fellow, bullet fit, alloys, primers, powder, grip techniques....if you choose to listen and not immediately write it off as BS.

I don't understand why anyone would take anything they see on the internet as gospel, if it interests you, then take whatever info you can get from it and apply it to your shooting. That way, there are no dilemmas to worry about and nobody has to feel the need to call anyone else a liar....or get all upset by what they interpret as outlandish.

cbrick makes a really good point about not admitting defeat before you've even started...if you program yourself to fail, you will. Another fellow has a tagline something like "Prove stuff to yourself"....all good advice.

Rodie you and others continue to use the word "liar". I never have. nor would I. Nor frankly have some others here other than the hopefuls and the followers. The word does not make your argument stronger. The wordjust inflames or distracts from your opinion.

I don't doubt 44man was and remains an accomplished shooter. What distracts from his council are his outlandish and to be frank unbelievable claims. Do you really believe he regularly shot or continues to shoot targets with iron sights with stock revolvers that exceed US National records for scoped custom handguns. Really??? Or do you just wish to believe on the hopes he will lead you to the promised land? I suspect you are smarter than that.

I find it sad, as I am sure 44man can and could provide assistance to those who play long distance shooting or plinking for that matter. But alas, he inserts so much nonsense into his information base it is difficult to take anything he says seriously. That in itself is a disservice to those who follow us.

Take Care

Bob

[ole 5 hole group]

Todays 22 rimfire target ammunition is the finest ever manufactured. A good ideal what is capable of here http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-...mparison-test/

You got that right - but Federal Gold was very disappointing for the price paid. Good but not as good as I hoped for. My S&W 41 shot the ole Remington Target extremely well, while most couldn't get that particular cartridge to do squat for them. I've heard some Russian 22LR is probably the best ever - never seen it, just heard rumors.

[M-Tecs]

You got that right - but Federal Gold was very disappointing for the price paid. Good but not as good as I hoped for.

You are not the only one that felt that way. I used to work for the company that designed and built the inspection tooling for Federal. I built a fair amount of it myself. Federal invested a great deal of money into the Olympic level 22 match ammo. They currently farm that out to RWS IIRC.

I still have a bunch of the Western Mark IV Super Match, Western Mark IV Super Pistol Match, Remington Pistol Match and a little of the Federal Gold Medal Match with the dimpled base. None of it holds a candle to the current Eley Tenex or Eley Tenex Ultimat EPS.

[dtknowles]

You are not the only one that felt that way. I used to work for the company that designed and built the inspection tooling for Federal. I built a fair amount of it myself. Federal invested a great deal of money into the Olympic level 22 match ammo. They currently farm that out to RWS IIRC.

I still have a bunch of the Western Mark IV Super Match, Western Mark IV Super Pistol Match, Remington Pistol Match and a little of the Federal Gold Medal Match with the dimpled base. None of it holds a candle to the current Eley Tenex or Eley Tenex Ultimat EPS.

In my Ruger MKII and my Savage/Anchuez MDL 10 Wolf Match shoots smaller groups than Eley Tenex and Eley Sport.

Tim

[tazman]

Rodie you and others continue to use the word "liar". I never have. nor would I. Nor frankly have some others here other than the hopefuls and the followers. The word does not make your argument stronger. The wordjust inflames or distracts from your opinion.

I don't doubt 44man was and remains an accomplished shooter. What distracts from his council are his outlandish and to be frank unbelievable claims. Do you really believe he regularly shot or continues to shoot targets with iron sights with stock revolvers that exceed US National records for scoped custom handguns. Really??? Or do you just wish to believe on the hopes he will lead you to the promised land? I suspect you are smarter than that.

I find it sad, as I am sure 44man can and could provide assistance to those who play long distance shooting or plinking for that matter. But alas, he inserts so much nonsense into his information base it is difficult to take anything he says seriously. That in itself is a disservice to those who follow us.

Take Care

Bob

You describe a post as outlandish, unbelievable, and nonsense but still claim you have not called him a liar? You might as well go ahead and use the word since you dance around it so closely.
The difference you claim is no difference at all.

[Thumbcocker]

Could much of this thread not be summarized by asking will a factory revolver shoot better with select ammunition developed just for it than a custom revolver with off the shelf ammunition? Or put another way Which is more important the gun or the ammunition? Assuming a skilled shooter of course.

[robertbank]

You describe a post as outlandish, unbelievable, and nonsense but still claim you have not called him a liar? You might as well go ahead and use the word since you dance around it so closely.
The difference you claim is no difference at all.

Don't think I used "outlandish" you might want to check that. I guess when it comes right down to it, if the shoe fits wear it. If you constantly claim you shoot better with iron sights with stock revolvers than US National Champions do with scoped handguns you are not a liar you are delusional or just testing the general population for how down the gullible food chain folks dwell at. I don't think 44man is delusional so you figure it out.

Take care

Bob

[cbrick]

In my Ruger MKII and my Savage/Anchuez MDL 10 Wolf Match shoots smaller groups than Eley Tenex and Eley Sport. Tim

Diddo, same in my FA 22. Kinda sad I used to b*tch about $35 a brick for it and I could have all I wanted any time I wanted it at that price.

Rick