Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[tazman]

Im pretty sure he wasnt talking about killing the thread and you should read runfive's post. Its about as clear a warning as it gets unless i am totally off the mark

I wasn't talking about killing the thread which I couldn't have done anyway. That was his idea.
I just wanted the hostilities and name calling to end. Never did like being called a liar.


I am very interested in the information in this thread. I don't own a 44 or have plans to buy one, but the concepts of what can be done with ammunition and the revolver to make things more accurate are transferable to the calibers I do own.

Thank you all for posting. This information is priceless.
tazman

[ole 5 hole group]

800.00 with a kart barrel fitted, slide tightened, 3.5lb trigger job, slide drilled and tapped for marvel mount, and a long trigger installed.

530 for NIB mil spec. That's 1350. It's a solid 2" gun at 50 yards. Dave Salyer did the work

That's an extremely great price for a "solid 2" gun at 50 yards".

On one of my PII's I have a 3# trigger with irons, but the other with the Deltapoint has a 2.5# trigger with the ultra light hammer kit consisting of the hammer, sear and titanium firing pin. I need all the help I can get.

[M-Tecs]

The QC process involved dimensional, weight, and expansion criteria to be met or exceeded before being package for resale. Unlike rifle bullets that were required to meet or exceed an accuracy specification. However, rifle bullets of similar construction and geometry to handgun bullets such as intended for use in a 444 Marlin, 375 Win would on occasion shoot extremely well rivaling match bullets. The specification for the 444 / 375 bullets was less demanding as compared to hunting bullets in bottle neck cartridges, and much less than match bullets. I would suspect if samples of handgun bullets were pulled from lot numbers or form store shelves and shot for accuracy many would not meet the specification for 444 / 375 type bullets. Keep in mind the tests are performed under controlled conditions inside with equipment that is designed to reduce or eliminate human error.

When Kevin Thomas was still with Sierra he published the test standards for some bullets. I had them at one time but I gave up trying to locate them. IIRC 1/4 MOA for 30 cal. match. I do remember pistol was not nearly as impressive. At one time I also had the Mil Spec standards for 45 ACP match ball and wadcutter. This is a big IF but seem to remember 1 1/4" for 10 at 50 but I wouldn't bet a beer on it.

Sierra testing is explained under quality control http://www.sierrabullets.com/about-u...tory/index.cfm

[MarkP]

Interesting test here http://reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_b...b-accuracy.htm on plain base verse bevel base in a 357 Mag Contender with 8X scope. It does have some jacketed control group data.

Excellent write-up thank you for sharing the link.

[runfiverun]

I have pulled this thread once and reviewed it.
I have also had a talk with one of the participants and issued points to a drive-by sniper.

I don't like wasting my time chasing down and reviewing threads I like to come to the site and read it or post my thoughts on problems.

Some of my issues stem from going through this same thing when I am trying to explain what is needed to shoot a cast boolit in a rifle at high velocity and at or better than jacketed accuracy.
I have targets stacked up under the powder cabinet, good ones and bad ones.
I keep the bad ones because those were the ones that I learned from.
I learned from them because I investigated the causes and I thought about it long and hard and then I measured things and tried another way until I figured it out.

Now when someone comes along and tells
Me I didn't or can't do that I tend to be a little bit testy.

Maybe instead of saying no you can"t you might want to be saying 'what did you notice that made this possible' and then try taking that hard won knowledge and putting it to use.

I always hear hear the guy on TV at the end of the nascar race say well we found a little something in practice on Saturday that helped.

[like it all]

From the bench at 25 yds, one would expect 2" or smaller from most all iron sighted revolvers. The old 1" per ten yds rule still applies, especially for hunting. My Bisely did it out of the box last week. First four were two hands standing, last six were from bench.

[44man]

It has been a long while since I used jacketed in any revolver. Hornady always shot best even back in my rifle varmints days. Longer ago then some of you are old. I went 100% to cast once I started hunting only. A little harder work but cast will shoot as good or better in the end.
This is a cast boolit site and I don't need to tell anyone they work. I don't need to tell anyone they need custom to shoot them either. There ARE some factory guns that are wrong and need work. I can't put down a box, stock Ruger and if it will not shoot, I will be surprised. Might take trigger and throat work for a few bucks.
Will a stock SRH out shoot a custom, sure every single time. The SBH Hunter is a dream. A BFR out of box will make you drool.
Friend Pete and I were at my club. Pete shakes all the time, seen him trying to put a chap stick in his SS once at IHMSA! We watched rifle shooters shoot at a 6" swinger at 400 yards. I asked if we could shoot it. From Creedmore laying on the bench I missed the first shot but Pete told me where I hit. I hit the next 4 shots, told him where to aim and Pete hit 3 out of 5. BFR .475 with my cast boolit! Most rifle guys packed it in but a few came to see what we shot. They could not believe a revolver.
Whitworth was here with a new BFR in .500 JRH, got it sighted and I put up a can at 100. He shot at it and it did not fall, I took the next shot. This is what we found.Attachment 130989Attachment 130990No, revolvers are junk and can't shoot. Cast is junk and factory revolvers can't shoot, give me a break!. Whitworth is a great shot and we put those little water bottles to 100 yards and he shot them off hand. He did better then me. Took some tweaking with a SRH at 200 to get sights right but this is a can at 200 yards.Attachment 130995Not a thing done to a new SRH.

[tazman]

My eyes won't let me aim properly beyond about 10 yards.
If I get the target in focus, I can't see the sights. If I get the sights in focus(which is getting harder as I get older), I can't see the target. For me, any precise work beyond 20 yards has to be done with optics, be it from a rest or off hand. Iron sights at 50 yards for me is a waste of time and ammunition.
The best thing I can work on right now is my ammunition quality. I have an indoor range I can shoot at about once a week. I spend the week studying and working up loads to test at the range.
My plans for the summer, when I can get outside, is to work at longer ranges to see what my gun, ammunition, and I are capable of.
I am already testing some of the loading information on this thread, and it has tightened my groups. I am looking forward to longer ranges now.

[44man]

Tell me about it! Long ago i could focus sights AND the target. Today I stick my glasses at the end of my nose to watch TV but in place I can't read comics, best part of the paper! It pains me to wear glasses deer hunting or my red dot is crazy.

[44man]

Just finished a bunch of 30-30 loads for my Marlin but we expect up to 9" of snow tonight. Hate to take my dogs out it is so cold. My little one took me all the way to my range to go pot. Then went nuts with the cat and ran circles like a nut. My hands were froze and she is in front of the wood stove, who is smarter?

[jrayborn]

Well up here it was 11 degrees on the positive side of zero and only about 25 mph gusts, so I headed to the range. Had to break my own trail from the bench.



So I worked with my uncle's Security-six for a bit and moved on to my .45 Colt Blackhawk. This was 6 rounds at about 20 yards. It's actually the first 6 rounds I have ever loaded with the Lee 300-452 GC boolit, sized .454, over 17 grains of 2400. Granted it's not 50 yards, but it certainly shows promise...



So that was the first group, the others were not so good. In my defense, my feet were getting pretty numb, wish I could have spent more time.

My Blackhawk isn't really stock. I have reamed and honed the throats to around .4528 and cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees, and have a .002 shim on the front bearing surface of the cylinder. Still lots of fun, even when it's frigid!

[apen]

I deleted the question right after I figured it out. Thank you.

[tazman]

jrayborn----- That is an excellent target. Especially so because of the conditions. The winds you mention destroy groups with handguns, even at relatively short yardages.

[robertbank]

Great shooting. Your range looks like ours does right now. With the warm weather right now ours should be free of snow by the week-end. Time to do some preseason testing with PC bullets and 700x, a powder I picked up to try since I can't get my regular powder right now.

Take Care

Bob

[geargnasher]

....Maybe instead of saying no you can"t you might want to be saying 'what did you notice that made this possible' and then try taking that hard won knowledge and putting it to use.....

That's the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me about these things, almost no one asks how it is possible, only disputes what is claimed because it doesn't fit their paradigm.

Interesting perhaps only to me, but a few years ago I noticed some fellows making some pretty outrageous claims of accuracy and velocity with a certain milsurp, using cast bullets. I decided to find out for myself what I could learn from them and do, so I started asking questions, lots of them. I also got in a lot of fights trying to get the naysayers to shut up long enough for me to learn something, or at least give some scientific reasoning why it couldn't be done. In the end, I learned a lot about people on internet forums and I learned the truth about the outrageous claims. Now if I say what I did I get called a liar and hated, too.

When I first joined, my very first post was a question about leading. Jim was one of the first to respond. He got my attention right off and kept it, and he's helped me directly and indirectly do things with revolvers that I never would have dreamed possible, though not nearly as great as dedicated sixgunners with truly excellent nerves can do. He opened my eyes, and that in itself is priceless, and he has always been willing to help me learn every way he can when I asked. That isn't misplaced "hero worship" on my part, just humble appreciation. Thank you, Jim, and to people like you who I've never seen shoot, but have taught me to think past the middle of the "bell curve" that has been mentioned on this thread and made me a better handloader and shooter for it. I don't care if you really could shoot a hole in a nickel every time at 100 yards or not, you have encouraged me to try, and with what I've learned I've come close enough to that myself to believe you......with bone-stock revolvers, no less.

In the spirit of the thread title, I submit that reality of revolver accuracy is what you as a shooter and handloader are able to make of it, nothing more, nothing less, but that it can be a lot better with many production guns than most of you are willing to even imagine.

Gear

[cbrick]

That's the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me about these things, almost no one asks how it is possible, only disputes what is claimed because it doesn't fit their paradigm.

Interesting perhaps only to me, but a few years ago I noticed some fellows making some pretty outrageous claims of accuracy and velocity with a certain milsurp, using cast bullets. I decided to find out for myself what I could learn from them and do, so I started asking questions, lots of them. I also got in a lot of fights trying to get the naysayers to shut up long enough for me to learn something, or at least give some scientific reasoning why it couldn't be done. In the end, I learned a lot about people on internet forums and I learned the truth about the outrageous claims. Now if I say what I did I get called a liar and hated, too.

When I first joined, my very first post was a question about leading. Jim was one of the first to respond. He got my attention right off and kept it, and he's helped me directly and indirectly do things with revolvers that I never would have dreamed possible, though not nearly as great as dedicated sixgunners with truly excellent nerves can do. He opened my eyes, and that in itself is priceless, and he has always been willing to help me learn every way he can when I asked. That isn't misplaced "hero worship" on my part, just humble appreciation. Thank you, Jim, and to people like you who I've never seen shoot, but have taught me to think past the middle of the "bell curve" that has been mentioned on this thread and made me a better handloader and shooter for it. I don't care if you really could shoot a hole in a nickel every time at 100 yards or not, you have encouraged me to try, and with what I've learned I've come close enough to that myself to believe you......with bone-stock revolvers, no less.

In the spirit of the thread title, I submit that reality of revolver accuracy is what you as a shooter and handloader are able to make of it, nothing more, nothing less, but that it can be a lot better with many production guns than most of you are willing to even imagine.

Gear

Post 242 of this thread.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools. Rick

No shortage of naysayers. As soon as someone convinces themselves that it cannot be done or that "the revolver" isn't capable they will never improve. They won't ask how it's done because they already know the other guy is lying and say so. Anyone willing to put the work in at the loading bench and at the range will surprise themselves with what both the revolver and themselves can do. As long as they don't defeat themselves before they begin.

Rick

[tazman]

That's the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me about these things, almost no one asks how it is possible, only disputes what is claimed because it doesn't fit their paradigm.

Interesting perhaps only to me, but a few years ago I noticed some fellows making some pretty outrageous claims of accuracy and velocity with a certain milsurp, using cast bullets. I decided to find out for myself what I could learn from them and do, so I started asking questions, lots of them. I also got in a lot of fights trying to get the naysayers to shut up long enough for me to learn something, or at least give some scientific reasoning why it couldn't be done. In the end, I learned a lot about people on internet forums and I learned the truth about the outrageous claims. Now if I say what I did I get called a liar and hated, too.

When I first joined, my very first post was a question about leading. Jim was one of the first to respond. He got my attention right off and kept it, and he's helped me directly and indirectly do things with revolvers that I never would have dreamed possible, though not nearly as great as dedicated sixgunners with truly excellent nerves can do. He opened my eyes, and that in itself is priceless, and he has always been willing to help me learn every way he can when I asked. That isn't misplaced "hero worship" on my part, just humble appreciation. Thank you, Jim, and to people like you who I've never seen shoot, but have taught me to think past the middle of the "bell curve" that has been mentioned on this thread and made me a better handloader and shooter for it. I don't care if you really could shoot a hole in a nickel every time at 100 yards or not, you have encouraged me to try, and with what I've learned I've come close enough to that myself to believe you......with bone-stock revolvers, no less.

In the spirit of the thread title, I submit that reality of revolver accuracy is what you as a shooter and handloader are able to make of it, nothing more, nothing less, but that it can be a lot better with many production guns than most of you are willing to even imagine.

Gear

That is why I read and study and practice the concepts I find in threads like this. There is always something new to learn. There is always a way to get better.
In the past several months I have picked up many ideas from this site and hope to continue to do so.

[robertbank]

So what do you learn from a fellow who claims he regularly shoots better than the recorded national records set by scoped handguns? What is the truth, what is not and how do you tell the difference? Therein lies the dilemma we face. So much misinformation on the net it is hard to take anyone seriously except to apply your personal life experiences up against what has been said. Then draw your conclusions. Simple application of high school physics eliminates some of what is claimed. Add to that some common sense and an understanding of some of the basic variables that must come together to produce a desired result and you enter the world of reality.

Take Care

Bob

[ballistim]

That's the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me about these things, almost no one asks how it is possible, only disputes what is claimed because it doesn't fit their paradigm.

Interesting perhaps only to me, but a few years ago I noticed some fellows making some pretty outrageous claims of accuracy and velocity with a certain milsurp, using cast bullets. I decided to find out for myself what I could learn from them and do, so I started asking questions, lots of them. I also got in a lot of fights trying to get the naysayers to shut up long enough for me to learn something, or at least give some scientific reasoning why it couldn't be done. In the end, I learned a lot about people on internet forums and I learned the truth about the outrageous claims. Now if I say what I did I get called a liar and hated, too.

When I first joined, my very first post was a question about leading. Jim was one of the first to respond. He got my attention right off and kept it, and he's helped me directly and indirectly do things with revolvers that I never would have dreamed possible, though not nearly as great as dedicated sixgunners with truly excellent nerves can do. He opened my eyes, and that in itself is priceless, and he has always been willing to help me learn every way he can when I asked. That isn't misplaced "hero worship" on my part, just humble appreciation. Thank you, Jim, and to people like you who I've never seen shoot, but have taught me to think past the middle of the "bell curve" that has been mentioned on this thread and made me a better handloader and shooter for it. I don't care if you really could shoot a hole in a nickel every time at 100 yards or not, you have encouraged me to try, and with what I've learned I've come close enough to that myself to believe you......with bone-stock revolvers, no less.

In the spirit of the thread title, I submit that reality of revolver accuracy is what you as a shooter and handloader are able to make of it, nothing more, nothing less, but that it can be a lot better with many production guns than most of you are willing to even imagine.

Gear

Great post, and while I haven't posted on this thread (like btroj said I'm scared to death to) I've tried to stay with this one to learn from it as with a few other threads that have had some conflicts take away from any useful discussion taking place. R5R & Gear seem to have tried to steer it back on track with a few others, hope it stays there so I can benefit from what has been learned from the experience of several of you out there.

Tim

[TheDoctor]

I haven't shot enough to say that all revolvers can shoot. I do know that my Smith 19 and 25-5 loaded with some carefully loaded ammo can out shoot me by a considerable amount. I am doing great to hold 6 inches at 100 with anything. I have an older super redhawk that so far has only fired jacketed. It likes heavy bullets pushed very hard, and will put 6 300 grain XTP's into 1 1/2 at 100 all day long, tighter if I am having a good day. That is scoped, off a bench. Suckers too heavy for me to freehand it. Really need to get a mold that will cast in that weight range, curiosity is killing me. If someone had asked me 10 years ago if a out of the box revolver could be that accurate, I would probably have said no. Live and learn. You don't know what you don't know, and will never know if you keep a closed mind.